SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Talk about Green Ronin's A Song of Ice and Fire RPG, based on George R.R. Martin's best-selling fantasy series. Winter is here!

Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Kival » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:06 am

Is he meant to be a starting character? NPCs are not restricted to starting experience.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Micaelian » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 am

Yes, he is a pregenerated starting character, and his stats block read "Middle-aged expert". So he's been considered a middle-aged character when he clearly isn't.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates, Chronicle Starter

Postby Isharr » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:17 am

Chronicle Starter, p. 21, New Wealth Holding: In the description of vineyard it says it grants a +5 bonus on House Fortune rolls. on p. 20 it says Vineyard(10, House Fortunes +3). So which one is correct? I would personally go for +3 ...
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Kajani » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:45 am

Night's Watch page 38 table 1-13:

Rangers: I would say it should be possible to "upgrade" Rangers too when it comes to Fighting and Marksmanship Damage . It seems unlikely that improofed Stewards deal more damage in categories...

Mounted Rangers: The Armor Penalty -3 seems a bit high for AR 4. Maybe this counts for the upgraded armour of 5 and should mean AP -2 for normal mounted rangers?
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Jingizu » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:15 pm

Irontruth wrote:
Archon007 wrote:Because Jaime Lannister is suppose to be the BEST swordsman in all the realm and a new character being made can be equally as good if not better than him. That's what I meant by a joke. It's a system thing, in my campaigns I don't let starting characters have more than a 5 in 1 or 2 abilities if they want higher then they can only get it from adventured experience.


That's a personal preference, that I think is more based on a D&D-esque (or similar game focused on growth of character abilities) paradigm of gaming. I think a middle-aged character who is completely focused on combat should be on equal footing with Jamie Lannister, and that's my preference for this kind of game. I think it's cool that you could potentially play a character who is at the peak of their career and is now on a downward slope.


I have to disagree. Jaime ist by and far THE very best swordsman of all of westeros (as not only he himself stats, but virutally ALL the other chars in the book), and if u compare that to the ability table, thats the very definition of a 6 in an ability. Maybe even a 7 though then he'd have to be about the best in a century and thats rather hard to compare though actually quite propable. And remember: Aegon the Conqueror had skills of 8+ and thats just 300 yrs ago.
So i'd put Jaime down w/ a 7 and give maybe only 5 to the Mountain (but w/ Greatsword and +3B LBF), 6 to Robert, 6 to Ser B. Selmy, 6 to Ser Arthur Dayne. Not sure about Vic. Greyjoy, The Hound, Brienne, Ser Loras Tyrell. Several other like The Red Viper at 5-6.

But even with fighting at only 6 Jaime should still have athletics 5 and +3B strength as "one of the strongest men" in Westeros. Look at the stats of King Robert whom (btw) he thinks only slightly stronger and certainly less skilled.


As for Gregor Clegane:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Gregor_Clegane

"Gregor weighs over thirty stone (420 lbs), nearly all of it muscle, making him near inhumanly strong. (...) Such is the power of Gregor's strength that he has been known to hack men in half with just a single blow. In battle he wears the heaviest, thickest plate armor in the Seven Kingdoms. His armor is so heavy that no ordinary man would be able to move, let alone fight (...).

Calls for the very highest strength of almost all living chars, doesnt it?

Edit: For a more elaborate discussion of tier 7 abilities, see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=12560

So these are really just broken stats and should be changed.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby phild » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:19 am

Jingizu wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Archon007 wrote:I have to disagree. Jaime ist by and far THE very best swordsman of all of westeros
You'll probably know yourself as you've referenced a link to the awoiaf.westeros.org site that there is not uniform agreement on just how good Jaime is / was. Many characters speak of his skill, but many of the grander statements come from his own first person testimony, but there are limited examples as to who he's actually fought and no victories in tournament melees (for example) to support these statements. He's certainly good, but there is no hard evidence as to just how good.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Jingizu » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:47 am

phild wrote: You'll probably know yourself as you've referenced a link to the awoiaf.westeros.org site that there is not uniform agreement on just how good Jaime is / was. Many characters speak of his skill, but many of the grander statements come from his own first person testimony, but there are limited examples as to who he's actually fought and no victories in tournament melees (for example) to support these statements. He's certainly good, but there is no hard evidence as to just how good.


SPOILER ALERT, dont read on if u havent read the books.

Hmm, lets see: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaime_Lannister

„Jaime is a born warrior, and most of his skills lie in the area of martial expertise.“

"At the age of eleven, Jaime was sent to Crakehall to squire for old Lord Sumner Crakehall alongside Merrett Frey. Two years later, while still a squire, he won his first tourney melee."
- So when he was 13yrs old.

At the age of fifteen(!), Jaime participated in the campaign against the Kingswood Brotherhood, during which he saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben and crossed swords with the psychotic Smiling Knight. He was knighted on the battlefield by Ser Arthur Dayne (hot candidate for 6-7 himself).

Also please remember, that this famous quote:
„Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain’s strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman.“

is not something he says to others as a boast, but something he thinks to himself and over which he is so deeply disturbed (Brienne's skill) because he knows it to be true.
So ofc he could just be a shizophrenic maniac who believes he is among the best, but isnt - but i dont think that to be the picture of his psyche in the books. Like all people, he may have the inclination to overrate his own skill a little bit, but i dont think he's far from right here.

Oh and all that even though he was in truely horrible condition during that fight!
He was weak from imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight!

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/to ... -vs-loras/

Jaime: held off the TSK at 15, saved Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben around the same time, knighted by Dayne as a result, wins the Battle of the Golden Tooth against Piper and Vance, the Battle of Riverrun against Edmure, loses the Whispering Wood but kills at least 3 men (all heirs of great northern houses) before being caught, kills 2 and injures 1 severely during his escape attempt from Riverrun, loses to Brienne (though he has been chained hand and foot in a dungeon for 6 months before, was not fed well, has to use a longsword with both hands because they are chained together and she is wearing armour when he is not).
And Brienne remembers her fight with Jaime as the fight of her life.“
While i think we have established she is very good herself as well (beat Ser Loras, won tourney, etc).

Quote from Barristan Semly himself:
„A few might well be ready. The boy from the Basilisk Isles, for a start. Tumco Lho. Black as maester's ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister.“


http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Barristan_Selmy
„As a result, Robert's Kingsguard was considered to be one of the worst in its history, with many regarding Barristan and Jaime as the only true remaining knights of the Kingsguard. While Ser Jaime Lannister was considered to certainly be one of the most formidable swordsmen in all of the Seven Kingdoms, his retention in the group after his murder of King Aerys was particularly controversial.“

To close the list with:
„From all accounts (Barristan, Brienne, Sandor, etc.) Jaime is an amazing swordsman, so much so, that even missing one hand, people fear him and think twice before facing him.
This includes Loras who put away his sword when one handed Jaime reached for his own.


So apart for some very few, like this „zalim“ in the forum (who believes the best is Ser Loras...) i cant really find a „discussion“ or real „controverse“ about Jaime being in the top 10 of Westeros. Only about whether he is the best or sb else.
Even 95% of those who dont think he is the very best, still put him down as „one of the best“. So skill tier 6, alright. Maybe 7 for Selmy (since you value tourneys and duels so high – read HIS vita then. The guy is better than in RL the legendary Sir William Marshal! You could even give him an 8 in SIFRP system, since they gave him the "Blood Of Heroes" ability). Decide for yourself, but dont give Jaime 5, thats just weird.


But if u want to discuss Jaime some more, we can make a new thread. To me, this thread is about the overall skills of the NPCs. Ser Barristan Selmy is down w/ fighting 5, too. Insane. (yes he is old now, but thats what you show with flaws&drawbacks instead!)

Edit: Lol, this piece of fun from GRRM himself about a "tournament" between the best fantasy fighters ever, coming down to a final betwenn Rand al'Thor (hope u know him, wheel of time series, created by "Lord Jordayne", lol) and one-handed Jaime Lannister: http://grrm.livejournal.com/147038.html

"If he had not lost his sword hand, they might have been well matched, but having to learn to fight all over again with his off hand had robbed him of half his skill. Every cut he made was a beat slower, every parry came a half a heartbeat too late. Against an ordinary opponent, none of that would have mattered... and battered and bruised as he was, in obvious pain, Rand al'Thor was still as quick as any man that Jaime Lannister had ever faced. If Rand had not been so badly hurt -- blood was seeping through his clothing all along his side -- his skill at swordplay would have been a match for even Barristan the Bold. Ser Arthur Dayne would have proved his master, Jaime did not doubt, but only with Dawn in his hand."
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Mediterraneo » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:45 pm

Campaign guide.

Apart from the NPC stats, that are in discussion by many customers, I have some problems understanding the AR and the Armour penalities indicated for some armour tipe and characters.

A Superior Full Plate is indicated as King Robert's armor, as well as for Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister.
But in the king's box, its stats are AR 11 Armor penality -5, while in the other two they are AR 11 Armor penality -2.
Even if the number was including the effect of the indicated shields the characters use (large ones, defensive +4, while the king prefers a 2 handed weapon) there is still a difference of 1 point of combat defense total.

Is this a mistake?
Should we take all the resuming numbers in the boxes as possibly incorrect, and control ourselves from the original manual the correct values for weapons and armor?
There are many discrepancies with the values written on the Rulebook or calculated from it, even taking into account the possible benfits of the characters.

Cheers.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Addicted2aa » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:03 pm

Jingizu wrote:„As a result, Robert's Kingsguard was considered to be one of the worst in its history, with many regarding Barristan and Jaime as the only true remaining knights of the Kingsguard. While Ser Jaime Lannister was considered to certainly be one of the most formidable swordsmen in all of the Seven Kingdoms, his retention in the group after his murder of King Aerys was particularly controversial.“


Notice is says one of the most, not the most. This means there are other contenders and he is clearly not so head and shoulders above everyone as to be no discussion. This will also be a discussion of only noble fighters and most likely won't even include hedge knights. So professional soldiers who make a living fighting and spend every day training, like Bronn for example, won't even get consideration. We also have to notice this only includes the men of westeros, so we don't know how he would stack up against Khal Drogo, Syrio, Belwas, or any of the other standouts from Essos. While he certainly could be a 7, the fact that he isn't definitely the best in Westeros now suggest a 6 at best.
Personally I like him at a 5 though, with plenty of bonus dice, but I keep my games really low level, trying to focus on the grittiness and realism in Martin's world, rather than the fantasy.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Aedorei » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:46 pm

Addicted2aa wrote:
Jingizu wrote:„As a result, Robert's Kingsguard was considered to be one of the worst in its history, with many regarding Barristan and Jaime as the only true remaining knights of the Kingsguard. While Ser Jaime Lannister was considered to certainly be one of the most formidable swordsmen in all of the Seven Kingdoms, his retention in the group after his murder of King Aerys was particularly controversial.“


Notice is says one of the most, not the most. This means there are other contenders and he is clearly not so head and shoulders above everyone as to be no discussion. This will also be a discussion of only noble fighters and most likely won't even include hedge knights. So professional soldiers who make a living fighting and spend every day training, like Bronn for example, won't even get consideration. We also have to notice this only includes the men of westeros, so we don't know how he would stack up against Khal Drogo, Syrio, Belwas, or any of the other standouts from Essos. While he certainly could be a 7, the fact that he isn't definitely the best in Westeros now suggest a 6 at best.
Personally I like him at a 5 though, with plenty of bonus dice, but I keep my games really low level, trying to focus on the grittiness and realism in Martin's world, rather than the fantasy.


I think Jamie Lannister sitting at a 5 for Fighting is extremely low, just based on the rules.

NPC Hedge Knights and Veteran Guards sit at a 4, based on the given stats in the books. Secondary NPCs with Fighting as their primary stat will have a 5. Jaimie is clearly above these two groups. I suppose some discussion could be made between a 6 and a 7, but the developers certainly feel he is a 7 since that is what they gave him in the Campaign Guide. Whether that makes him "the best in Westeros" is another debate entirely, but it should be noted that he is the only fighter in the Campaign Guide that does have a 7 in Fighting (with most of the other notables like Loras, Robert and Barristan sitting at a 6).
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Addicted2aa » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:50 pm

Aedorei wrote:
Addicted2aa wrote:
Jingizu wrote:„As a result, Robert's Kingsguard was considered to be one of the worst in its history, with many regarding Barristan and Jaime as the only true remaining knights of the Kingsguard. While Ser Jaime Lannister was considered to certainly be one of the most formidable swordsmen in all of the Seven Kingdoms, his retention in the group after his murder of King Aerys was particularly controversial.“


Notice is says one of the most, not the most. This means there are other contenders and he is clearly not so head and shoulders above everyone as to be no discussion. This will also be a discussion of only noble fighters and most likely won't even include hedge knights. So professional soldiers who make a living fighting and spend every day training, like Bronn for example, won't even get consideration. We also have to notice this only includes the men of westeros, so we don't know how he would stack up against Khal Drogo, Syrio, Belwas, or any of the other standouts from Essos. While he certainly could be a 7, the fact that he isn't definitely the best in Westeros now suggest a 6 at best.
Personally I like him at a 5 though, with plenty of bonus dice, but I keep my games really low level, trying to focus on the grittiness and realism in Martin's world, rather than the fantasy.


I think Jamie Lannister sitting at a 5 for Fighting is extremely low, just based on the rules.

NPC Hedge Knights and Veteran Guards sit at a 4, based on the given stats in the books. Secondary NPCs with Fighting as their primary stat will have a 5. Jaimie is clearly above these two groups. I suppose some discussion could be made between a 6 and a 7, but the developers certainly feel he is a 7 since that is what they gave him in the Campaign Guide. Whether that makes him "the best in Westeros" is another debate entirely, but it should be noted that he is the only fighter in the Campaign Guide that does have a 7 in Fighting (with most of the other notables like Loras, Robert and Barristan sitting at a 6).


That was the second take on the campaign guide where every body got more powerful. In the original publication he had a 5, with LB3 and spears 2, with 4 in the other combat stats. That puts him above a secondary NPC just made for fighting. Is it still a little weak for him? Possibly. A min-maxed starting character for combat would beat him most of the time out of the gate. I still like him closer to that level, as I prefer the realistic grittiness, as opposed to the over the top fantasy.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Jingizu » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:23 pm

Addicted2aa wrote: That was the second take on the campaign guide where every body got more powerful. In the original publication he had a 5, with LB3 and spears 2, with 4 in the other combat stats. That puts him above a secondary NPC just made for fighting. Is it still a little weak for him? Possibly. A min-maxed starting character for combat would beat him most of the time out of the gate.


There was a second edition with revised stats? Lol, and we're discussion this topic based on the first...
Ok, where can i get that one? I only know an ed. of 2010 with him (and Selmy) at fighting 5.

Edit:

Addicted2aa wrote:I still like him closer to that level, as I prefer the realistic grittiness, as opposed to the over the top fantasy.

Im not sure i agree with that idea of "realistic". In my view, whenever you have a very large body of ppl doing sth (like fighting in a huge and long war) there will always be some who show such exceptional skill that they are just way above the average (even good) soldier. So for displays of swordsmanship we'd have to look at the medieval times in Europe or the samurai time of Japan. Examples being:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M ... f_Pembroke
http://listverse.com/2012/07/04/top-10- ... g-samurai/
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... rSwordsman (far down "real life")

However, here we are confronted with the problem of possible poor records / myths enhancing the legends.

But even in modern times and despite "equalizers" like MGs and other modern weaponry, there were still individuals who showed a superior skill (not only courage) far above that of their peers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Howard

that list could go on.

So even in modern times there were "skill 7" kind of guys - it is just that u need a large (somewhat representive) number of ppl testing on one skill (here: fighting) to find those few individuals.

A more peaceful example might be football/soccer. There are millions playing that all over the world, but only a very few who are actually good enough to become professionals (tier 4-5). Even far less play in teams who compete in the champions league (tier 5-6), and even there some few are just far better than their peers, as those will readily admit. Like Pelé, Beckenbauer, Maradonna or Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo and the likes.

And yes, if you put those against the average professional like in 2nd leagues of England/Spain/Germany or 1st league in Belgium etc - they will rip right through them with a skill you wouldnt believe if you couldnt see it on youtube.
They wont always do that, just like even a 7 might lose to extremely bad dice vs a 4-5. But they usually will. And you'll sit there and ask how it is possible, that this indivdual makes other players whom you know to be among the best of their profession look like amateurs.
Last edited by Jingizu on Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Canarr » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:44 pm

Anywhere. It's the Campaign Guide, A Game of Thrones Edition.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Aedorei » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:10 pm

Addicted2aa wrote:
That was the second take on the campaign guide where every body got more powerful. In the original publication he had a 5, with LB3 and spears 2, with 4 in the other combat stats. That puts him above a secondary NPC just made for fighting. Is it still a little weak for him? Possibly. A min-maxed starting character for combat would beat him most of the time out of the gate. I still like him closer to that level, as I prefer the realistic grittiness, as opposed to the over the top fantasy.


This is true. In that edition, practically everyone with any acknowledged Fighting skill was at a 5 Fighting, including "typical Knight of the Kingsguard".

In many cases some were at a 4 or even a 3, except for Robert Baratheon who still has a 6, making him the undisputed "best Fighter in Westeros" according to that text.
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Re: SIFRP (Non-Core): FAQ and Updates

Postby Zorbeltuss » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:52 am

I think the average Fighting ranks of the historical members of the kingsguard would be at least 5. But they would generally be among those who had made themselves notable in battle or at least tourneys.
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