A sense of challenge can still be generated by inflicting penalties on a character’s tests or reducing Health for a certain number of days due to the side effects of said ritual/hangover/post traumatic stress from committing your first murder etc. The lead up to the joining of an organisation can also be arduous, presenting the character with difficult tasks rather than a test or die scenario.
Lynata wrote:Granted, this coincidence may seem somewhat "cheap" compared to a true risk like it exists in the background, yet it's no different to how the CRPG handled it.
Not to mention that few characters should even want to be Grey Wardens. There's a reason the Order is small and prefers to recruit from prisoners "these" days.Bardwulf wrote:If every character wants to be a GW, that's just the player failing to make his characters vary from who he is. This is a roleplaying game. If we want to go around bashing things until loot falls out as ourselves, we can play computer games for that. [...] it's not like they can be anywhere in the world and just press a grey warden button after all.
shonuff wrote:Save-or-die penalties work with some groups, but they are not for me.
Loswaith wrote:To me they dont seem the kind of organisation to just accept any individual off the street.
Hellebore wrote:Sure, but the GM is in control of those opportunities. In the end you are still basically dictating whether they can be one or not. Giving players a character limit on chances to be a grey warden isn't much different from denying/allowing them to be one. There's nothing stopping a player saying that they decide to go looking for grey wardens to become one, so it stil comes back to whether you want them to be one or not.
I just think in these circumstances, it would be simpler to tell players at the beginning that they can or can't be one. You can still put interesting obstacles/penalties in there to reinforce the difficulty of becoming one, but the PCs will either end up as one or not. How people justify it to themselves doesn't change the outcome, which is an either/or situation.
Loswaith wrote:I personaly (like others) see that becoming a Grey Warden is more a story aspect, and thuly inthe control of the GM anyway. If there is some reason for the character to become a Grey Warden (or have the oppertunity to become one) it generaly means the story itself has a certain bent to what is going on, and there is likely a reason for it to be available. To me they dont seem the kind of organisation to just accept any individual off the street.
So given that I dont see any real penality to just letting characters make it through the joining.
However at the end of the day its more about what works for an individual group. If the alternate rules work for your group then by all means use them.
Zapp wrote:Loswaith wrote:To me they dont seem the kind of organisation to just accept any individual off the street.
They do however accept individuals that later on die from the Joining. In fact, they even slaughter individuals that change their minds about taking the test. Messily.
So I'm not so sure about that. They can screen applicants for courage and valor in battle, but they can't screen for what's really important; how your system (and mind) handles the Joining.
Unless you accept that your PC is "more" than a regular NPC - like the game - it seems hard to remain faithful to the source material's depiction of the Joining without having an uncontrollable, unpredictable save vs death (and possibly a Morale check just beforehand)...
Zapp wrote: it seems hard to remain faithful to the source material's depiction of the Joining without having an uncontrollable, unpredictable save vs death (and possibly a Morale check just beforehand)...
Loswaith wrote: While they accept individuals, they typically would have some screening process . I cant realy see the grey wardens accepting someone they think will fail the joining, as thats not particularly efficient. They also cant be certain that someone will pass it, so they do loose recruits they think have a good chance to pass the joining in the process (atleast thats my take in it).
Loswaith wrote:There is the underlying notion that though a PC is inherently 'more' because they are a protagonist (be it a computer game or tabletop one or even a novel/movie). It doesnt always mean they are any better/worse than anyone else in the world. They are just a bit more touched by the hand of fate (the GM/designer/author), so to speak.
shonuff wrote:Zapp wrote: it seems hard to remain faithful to the source material's depiction of the Joining without having an uncontrollable, unpredictable save vs death (and possibly a Morale check just beforehand)...
IMO, that's going a little too far. Why not have a Morale check whenever PCs go into battle then? Becoming a Grey Warden should typically involve a detailed and lengthy quest series... finding the GWs, attracting their notice, etc. Finishing that with a save-or-die roll is really anti-climactic.
Zapp wrote: I'm not suggesting anything. I'm commenting on the mechanism as given. Essentially I'm saying "the task is not easy".
Zapp wrote:And the bit about Morale presupposed its use for NPCs only*. I was thinking about codifying a way to make nervous NPCs run off (and possibly be brutally cut down) like in the CRPG.
Well - by default you're not even supposed to use any mechanism. The optional rules for PCs testing the Joining are already unrealistically tweaked in favour of the players.shonuff wrote:Ah, I see. I just think the mechanism as given is really weak sauce.
Lynata wrote:Well - by default you're not even supposed to use any mechanism. The optional rules for PCs testing the Joining are already unrealistically tweaked in favour of the players.shonuff wrote:Ah, I see. I just think the mechanism as given is really weak sauce.
Well, going by the infobox in Set 2, the survival rate is only about 25%-33%, meaning that in average two out of three or three out of four prospective Wardens die. That's quite fatal.shonuff wrote:The Joining isn't supposed to be that fatal, though. Alistair is surprised, after all that 2 died in the Warden's Joining, and 5 of 6 survive during Awakening.
You're right on this; I misremembered.shonuff wrote:I thought the RAW was a roll of some sort. Of course, everything can be house-ruled.
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