New talent: Deadly Strikes

[shonuff]

The following is a talent with which I've been toying around. Suggestions are welcome.

New talent: Deadly Strikes (alternate name: Stabby McStab-Stab)

Prerequisites: Focus: Dexterity (Light Blades)
Class: Rogue

The following abilities are gained when using a dagger/main gauche.

Novice: The rogue can reroll damage against an unaware target. The damage from the second roll must be kept. An unaware target is one that is not already considered to be in combat, so this would not factor with bluff.

Journeyman: The stunt Lethal Blow costs 4 stunt points instead of 5.

Master: The rogue may add his/her cunning score to the damage roll.

[DracoDruid]

What you aim at is sort of a "non-combat" backstab ability, right?

That's how I like Backstab from the beginning, actually.
We have to thank D&D3 (or WOW?) for Rogues backstabbing in combat.
For me, it was always the fighter who found the gaps in the enemy's defenses,
but the rogue who could take out an unsuspecting target with a well placed dagger.
(And not a Longsword hit while flanking a target... stupid D&D3...)

But back to your talent:

1) I would change the prerequisites to: Dexterity/Cunning(?) 2 or higher; as this would be more in line to the other talents.

2) I would change Novice so that is says an "unsuspecting" target. So someone, that doesn't consider your rogue as a threat (for example because he is unarmed (except the hidden dagger of course)). Win an opposed Communication (Deception) vs. Perception (Empathy) test, if it is questionable.

3) I would call the talent "Assassinate" as that's what it is.

[shonuff]

What you aim at is sort of a "non-combat" backstab ability, right?

Yup. And I wanted the focus on daggers.

1) I would change the prerequisites to: Dexterity/Cunning(?) 2 or higher; as this would be more in line to the other talents.

That would be fine, although I want to keep the Light Blades focus because I want it to be an extension of light blades.

2) I would change Novice so that is says an "unsuspecting" target. So someone, that doesn't consider your rogue as a threat (for example because he is unarmed (except the hidden dagger of course)). Win an opposed Communication (Deception) vs. Perception (Empathy) test, if it is questionable.

I like it. Consider that stolen.

3) I would call the talent "Assassinate" as that's what it is.

Yeah, I couldn't really come up with a talent name, so I used what seemed to fit the best from the rogue talents from Origins.

[DracoDruid]

You are welcome.

I still would lose the focus requirment and just put it in the text, that the talent only works with light blades (or only dagger/main gauche) thou.

Happy stabbing!

[empyrien]

I like the novice ability. I had a couple of comments/questions about the others.

Journeyman: The stunt Lethal Blow costs 4 stunt points instead of 5.

I'm not sure about replicating the master ability from the Warrior/Berserker specialisation. The concept makes sense, maybe there is another way of handling it.

Master: The rogue may add his/her cunning score to the damage roll.

Is this for all attacks with a light blade or just the attacks made on unsuspecting targets?

[shonuff]

Journeyman -- ugh. Missed the double-up. May be back to the drawing board.

Master -- for all attacks with a dagger/main gauche, not just backstabs.

[empyrien]

Master -- for all attacks with a dagger/main gauche, not just backstabs.

This is good. I was toying with a similar concept myself, but having Cunning replace Strength instead of adding. I think at the Master level of a talent adding is appropriate. I'm still undecided as to whether or not rogues do enough damage overall. They are hard to hit, but very squishy.

[shonuff]

I would have replaced if I did it for all light blades, but I think I was influenced by a little too much Skyrim. lol

And, it's a master-level talent, so I figured bonus would be better than replace. Besides, not too many rogues are going to have high strength and cunning.

[Badu777]

Master -- for all attacks with a dagger/main gauche, not just backstabs.

This is good. I was toying with a similar concept myself, but having Cunning replace Strength instead of adding. I think at the Master level of a talent adding is appropriate. I'm still undecided as to whether or not rogues do enough damage overall. They are hard to hit, but very squishy.

Combat wise anything rogues can do Warriors can do better even with back stab your only doing 2d6+2 damage so your doing an extra roll for a +1 (assuming the warrior is using a bastard sword,) not to mention you probably don't have great strength to add to the damage. A Warrior with a shield can have more defense than a rogue but start out with the weapon and shield talent, the fact that a warrior gets to start out with not 1 but 2 talents of a large variety is a major plus. The talents the warrior gets are better than any rogue specific ones, even including yours. Even Bows the warrior is better at because you can start with the talent and you can increase dex every even level and perception every odd level. But a rogue also has non-combat things that the warrior doesn't, however the mage can start with the talent contacts and the rogue can't, which is a major out of combat talent.

[empyrien]

The talents the warrior gets are better than any rogue specific ones, even including yours.

The warriors do have an advantage when it comes to the combat style talents, both when it comes to progression and choice.

Even Bows the warrior is better at because you can start with the talent and you can increase dex every even level and perception every odd level.

By that argument, rogues can increase Dexterity every even level and Strength every odd level, and so in principle a rogue can be increasing their defence and their damage faster than a warrior can.

however the mage can start with the talent contacts and the rogue can't, which is a major out of combat talent.

Sorry, what? The rogue is the only class that can start with contacts.

[shonuff]

I don't think rogues are terribly underpowered... they have a narrower skill set, true, but that enables them to focus. A rogue, for example, I find to be more likely to take poisoning. Warriors can, too, but then they'd have to sacrifice armor or weapons. And an assassin's poisoned backstab is nasty.

[si1vergecko]

Sorry, what? The rogue is the only class that can start with contacts.

Let is not forget scouting either, which no other class can get.

I don't think rogues are terribly underpowered... they have a narrower skill set, true, but that enables them to focus. A rogue, for example, I find to be more likely to take poisoning. Warriors can, too, but then they'd have to sacrifice armor or weapons. And an assassin's poisoned backstab is nasty.

I like poisoning and backstabbing as much as the next guy but the catch 22 with poisoning involves the fact that you have to roll the stunt points for it. Not to mention as already mentioned the warrior if they so choose can also access poisons as well.

[shonuff]

Sorry, what? The rogue is the only class that can start with contacts.

Let is not forget scouting either, which no other class can get.

Scouting's pretty decent, but contacts (as written) is pretty terrible. You do a favor for someone and they help you? Wow.

I like poisoning and backstabbing as much as the next guy but the catch 22 with poisoning involves the fact that you have to roll the stunt points for it. Not to mention as already mentioned the warrior if they so choose can also access poisons as well.

Except you generate stunts, what, like 44% of the time? And accuracy dramatically improves at later levels, so most attacks generating stunt points are, in fact, generating stunt points.

And while warriors can take poison making, I think the majority of warriors will focus on other talents. Armor, weapon styles, etc.