Levitate

[Admiral Yacob]

So in my group a mage took levitate and we realized a couple issues.

1. No duration is listed in the book except that if successfully trying to rip a weapon from someone's hands it would end immediately. I was thinking Magic rounds but was hoping for other opinions.

2. If they create a seat or harness could they lift a person? I've kinda ruled that its difficult due to the movement of the person struggling or even just moving due to disorientation.

3. What about a dead or unconscious person?

[shonuff]

1. From my understanding, there is no duration as long as the maintenance MP is used.

2. I would rule that you couldn't with a harness unless the person was restrained to the point of not being able to move.

3. Dead or unconscious could be levitated as they are neither mobile nor aware.

[Admiral Yacob]

1. Maintenance MP? Do you mean the 1 MP that can extend it for one additional round?

2. I am thinking the same.

3. That was my thought.

[si1vergecko]

Personally I never really understood why it has been written in the book that you cannot use levitate on a person. I guess they were worried about players grasping enemies and throwing them out of multistory windows cliffs, or raising them high up then dropping them. That is my take at least.

[Loswaith]

I cant see it being too much of an issue allowing it to be used on willing targets. However the reprecussion is that it can make a mage/target effectivly fly when used. The limitation itself could be to minimise the size of objects being lifted, though there doesn't appear to be a limitation on inanimate objects anyway.

[Hellebore]

Wouldn't this be where a resistance test comes in? An object can't resist anything. So on a successful test the target is say knocked prone instead rather than being levitated. That would balance the spell somewhat against the ability to move people around, ridiculously high spellpower notwithstanding (as it's a problem for all spells anyway).

Don't forget that you can effectievly do a similar thing just using the skirmish stunt on a high point, 1 SP and watch as you walk your opponent 2 yards into open space.... which is a bit OP but by the rules it's entirely possible as the opponent has no way to defend against skirmish. Hell with just 3 SP you can skirmish someone off a cliff from SIX yards away.... and for even more shenanigans you can use a ranged weapon to skirmish so someone can shoot a bow from 30 yards away and then skirmish the target 6 yards off a cliff.

Hellebore

[Ghostdanser]

This is a painful spell to rule on, but here's my two cents...worth squat in the current economy.

1. Spending 1 MP per round extends the spell. Stop spending or run out of MP and the spell ends...that's the easiest part of the questions.

2. This is a bit more tricky. "You cannot levitate anything that is both aware and able to animate itself (such as most creatures and characters)." In theory a player could argue that if they restrain someone enough then they cannot animate themselves. I would rule that short of paralysis a restraint won't work. Let's say they strap them down to a rigid board so that the target can't move arms, legs head, etc. If the target has the ability to tense and release their muscles than they can rock the board and disrupt the spell. The player may also want to try to move a willing pc...but I would nix that also. Floating is an unnatural state and any aware pc will try to unconsciously adjust their balance rather than allow the mage unrestricted control.

3. Dead is neither aware or animate...easy yes. Unconscious is not aware and usually not animate...probably yes.

Some parting thoughts that aren't exactly covered by the questions.

If a pc or creature is paralyzed I see no reason they can't be levitated...they are aware but not animate.

If a pc or creature is naturally asleep I would say no...they may not be fully aware, but as soon as they start to levitate that unnatural feeling would startle them awake.

If a pc or creature is in a drugged sleep I would say maybe...it's tricky since it depends on how drugged they are...if they can partially waken at all, or toss and turn then I would say no. If they are so drugged that they would suffocate in their own vomit then probably okay...the gm might want a resistance check for this one.

If a player wants to levitate their mage pc using their own spell ("I fly to the the top of the cliff")...definitely not. The mage is both aware and animate...willingness does not help. There's also, "You must be able to see the object in order to manipulate it; the spell ends if it moves out of your vision." They can't look at themselves and look at where they are going at the same time...using a mirror means thinking in reverse and would disrupt concentration. I just think it's easier to say no and be done with it...no flying mages using levitate.

Just my thoughts on it...and maybe not right...but it works for me until something is changed.

[Pytorb]

I seem to remember reading from canon somewhere that one of the limitations on Dragon Age magic is that it has never been able to transport anybody. So ripping a hole into the Fade so mages can walk through is a yes (once and probably never repeated), any kind of flight or levitation is a no. If I'm right then even levitating unconcious or paralysed characters or creatures is probably a no.

One thought, if you can see an object at the bottom of a pool of water, could you levitate it within the pool or even out of the pool and into your hands? I'm inclinded to say yes but I would assign a minimum Strength score needed as it harder to move an object through water than air. For saying that if a mage tries to move anything other than a loose light object (e.g. 5-10lb or less) they should need to make a Strength check with the spell anyway (as they already do to disarm someone).

[shonuff]

1. Maintenance MP? Do you mean the 1 MP that can extend it for one additional round?

I agree with Ghostdanser. The rules are written ambiguously, but IMO, they seem to say that using 1 additional MP extends the duration for another round indefinitely (as long as the MP is spent). The rules could be interpreted to mean two round maximum, I guess, but 30 seconds isn't a long time.

[empyrien]

Don't forget that you can effectievly do a similar thing just using the skirmish stunt on a high point, 1 SP and watch as you walk your opponent 2 yards into open space.... which is a bit OP but by the rules it's entirely possible as the opponent has no way to defend against skirmish. Hell with just 3 SP you can skirmish someone off a cliff from SIX yards away.... and for even more shenanigans you can use a ranged weapon to skirmish so someone can shoot a bow from 30 yards away and then skirmish the target 6 yards off a cliff.

I adjusted the Skirmish stunt to take care of these circumstances actually. Basically, if you try to skirmish a character off a cliff, they get a Dexterity (Acrobatics) or Strength (Climbing) roll to avoid falling off the cliff. If they succeed they are left hanging at the top of the cliff face.

This was relevant to one combat I was running. My players were fighting a particularly tough enemy and they were keen to try to skirmish him off the cliff as an easy win. One of the players tried to say "How many points in Skirmish do I have to use to prevent him (the enemy) getting a roll to avoid falling?" My response was that whatever rule I allow for the players, I have to allow for the NPCs as well. They withdrew their request.

Later on in the combat when several players got skirmished off the cliff, if they hadn't been able to roll to hang onto the edge, they would have fallen to their deaths (due to the height of the cliff I determined a fall from the top would have been 10d6 penetrating damage).

My opinion on the levitate issue is that it only works on inanimate objects, full stop. It doesn't matter what the current state of a living or undead character is, as long as they could potentially take an action under normal circumstances (regardless of whether they are suffering a temporary incapacitation), they cannot be levitated. I base this on the first sentence in the description (emphasis mine):

You exert telekinetic force to move an inanimate object as though it were motivated by an invisible pair of hands.

[shonuff]

My opinion on the levitate issue is that it only works on inanimate objects, full stop. It doesn't matter what the current state of a living or undead character is, as long as they could potentially take an action under normal circumstances (regardless of whether they are suffering a temporary incapacitation), they cannot be levitated. I base this on the first sentence in the description (emphasis mine):

You exert telekinetic force to move an inanimate object as though it were motivated by an invisible pair of hands.

That right there is why I would allow it. Dead/unconscious are inanimate (definitely dead). And unconscious cannot move, so I would classify them as inanimate. Of course, you could also say that unconscious characters could have reflex movement that would possibly disrupt the spell.

[empyrien]

That right there is why I would allow it. Dead/unconscious are inanimate (definitely dead). And unconscious cannot move, so I would classify them as inanimate. Of course, you could also say that unconscious characters could have reflex movement that would possibly disrupt the spell.

I agree that it would work on a dead body. Unconscious people can still move, though not voluntarily. Just watch a sleeping person/child to see how often people move when they are asleep. So I would still say that you can't levitate an unconscious person.

Of course, I may still have a hangover from the first D'n'D campaign that I ran, based on the Belgariad. I introduced a custom spell system to to emulate the "Will and the Word" magic system that featured in those books, that included a levitate spell. So of course the first thing the players did was levitate a bad guy a couple of kilometres upwards, then let him fall. It was a harsh lesson for a rookie GM, but I've learned a lot since then.

[shonuff]

I agree that it would work on a dead body. Unconscious people can still move, though not voluntarily. Just watch a sleeping person/child to see how often people move when they are asleep. So I would still say that you can't levitate an unconscious person..

Sleeping yes, but I'm not sure how much someone is unconscious/comatose would move. I've never had first-hand experience so I don't know. I would agree that a moving unconscious person would possibly disrupt the spell (maybe definitely).

Of course, I may still have a hangover from the first D'n'D campaign that I ran, based on the Belgariad. I introduced a custom spell system to to emulate the "Will and the Word" magic system that featured in those books, that included a levitate spell. So of course the first thing the players did was levitate a bad guy a couple of kilometres upwards, then let him fall. It was a harsh lesson for a rookie GM, but I've learned a lot since then.

Haha. Players suck.

[empyrien]

Sleeping yes, but I'm not sure how much someone is unconscious/comatose would move. I've never had first-hand experience so I don't know. I would agree that a moving unconscious person would possibly disrupt the spell (maybe definitely).

It's true that externally a comatose person is likely to not move. But if they are still alive, that means their heart is beating and their blood is flowing throughout their system, so internally they are "moving", and as such I would still classify them as animated (in the sense of the Latin word anima, meaning breath, life force or soul).

[shonuff]

True, and Levitate may require total control of the object, so it would not work on an unconscious person with constant weight shift and balance issues (even minutely).

Apply science to magic isn't the most practical of hobbies...

[Ghostdanser]

My opinion on the levitate issue is that it only works on inanimate objects, full stop. It doesn't matter what the current state of a living or undead character is, as long as they could potentially take an action under normal circumstances (regardless of whether they are suffering a temporary incapacitation), they cannot be levitated. I base this on the first sentence in the description (emphasis mine):

You exert telekinetic force to move an inanimate object as though it were motivated by an invisible pair of hands.

And that works for me quite honestly...it makes things simpler. It's just that the part where it says, "You cannot levitate anything that is both aware and able to animate itself (such as most creatures and characters)." left a loophole worth debating.

So consider this for a possible loophole...what about Shale? While frozen Shale is aware but inanimate? Unfrozen Shale is aware and animate? It seems reasonable to say that you could move a golem while frozen, but not while unfrozen...however my answer to the player would probably be..."Are you freakin' kidding me? You can't lift a golem!!!"

The problem is the spell doesn't specify how much you can lift.

"When you cast levitate, split your Magic score as you wish between the effective Dexterity and Strength the object will have as you manipulate it. Neither can be assigned a value less than 0. If your Magic is negative, both are automatically 0."

So if I have Magic +3 I can say the object has a Dex +1 and a Str +2...but it doesn't matter if I am levitating a dagger, bastard sword, bullet or brick. So what exactly is the limitation on how much weight a mage can levitate? This one has me thinking...and I am just not sure since nothing is assigned a weight value.

[shonuff]

So consider this for a possible loophole...what about Shale? While frozen Shale is aware but inanimate? Unfrozen Shale is aware and animate? It seems reasonable to say that you could move a golem while frozen, but not while unfrozen...however my answer to the player would probably be..."Are you freakin' kidding me? You can't lift a golem!!!"

Well, the description say you cannot move something that is animated and aware. I would probably revise that to be only animated. Because if it is aware but inanimate, what can it do?

The problem is the spell doesn't specify how much you can lift.

Unless otherwise clarified, I would use the same amount as Shape Earth.

[Ghostdanser]

Ghostdanser wrote:The problem is the spell doesn't specify how much you can lift.



Unless otherwise clarified, I would use the same amount as Shape Earth.

So for Shape Earth it says, "The spell allows you to move earthen materials with an effective Strength equal to twice your Magic." So by the example I used in my previous post...a Magic +3 would equate to Strength +6. I can accept that as a reasonable solution. It still leaves it up to the GM to decide what exactly a Strength +6 can lift, but it is a start at least.

[shonuff]

Yeah... I've always wondered that myself.

[empyrien]

So for Shape Earth it says, "The spell allows you to move earthen materials with an effective Strength equal to twice your Magic." So by the example I used in my previous post...a Magic +3 would equate to Strength +6. I can accept that as a reasonable solution. It still leaves it up to the GM to decide what exactly a Strength +6 can lift, but it is a start at least.

Given that the Shape Earth description also states that the objects are pushed or pulled along the ground, but not levitated, I would argue that twice your Magic as the Strength equivalent is a bit generous for levitate. Instead I would say something like the size of the object you can levitate is determined when you split your Magic score between Dexterity and Strength. Once you have determined the Strength score, you can levitate something that a character with that Strength could lift and manipulate.

To me, this represents having to trade off between lifting a small item which can zip around quite quickly (i.e. favouring Dexterity over Strength when you split your Magic score), vs trying to levitate a very heavy item which is awkward to manipulate, and hence you can only move it around slowly (i.e. favouring Strength over Dexterity when you split your Magic score).

So consider this for a possible loophole...what about Shale? While frozen Shale is aware but inanimate? Unfrozen Shale is aware and animate? It seems reasonable to say that you could move a golem while frozen, but not while unfrozen...however my answer to the player would probably be..."Are you freakin' kidding me? You can't lift a golem!!!"

That is a tough one. If we instead talk about a hypothetical mini-Shale so we don't have to worry about the Strength issue, then while frozen mini-Shale is basically a magical equivalent of a video camera. It can observe events, but apart from this fact is indistinguishable from a stone statue. So in that circumstance I would probably allow levitation. Similarly if a character was petrified (and shrunk if needed to cover the Strength requirements) to the point where they do not have any moving internal organs (like the talking statue in the basement of the Mage tower), and are simply an "aware" statue, I would probably allow levitation. If it breathes or has a beating heart, I would disallow it.

[Koeran]

Just to clarify on the spell ending when you try to disarm someone. It reads to me like it only ends if you fail to do so.

If you try to wrest an object from someone’s grasp, its holder may resist by making an opposed Strength (Might) vs. Magic (Spirit) test. If successful, your spell ends immediately.

Thoughts?

On a tangent, I'd prefer a different version. I understand wanting to limit the things you can to do NPCs/PCs. But, you could allow the spell to effect moving targets without it being abused. At the moment, the range of "visual" is pretty damn powerful. I can just imagine a Mage sitting on a castle wall with a telescope, levitating a weapon and attacking people thousands of yards away. "But I can still see what I'm doing!"
Visual acuity, in humans at least, is actually pretty poor. We can only recognise faces at about 10 yards. If you limit the range to 10 yards, you stop a lot of the possible abuse. Also, if you keep it how it is, in that you can only manipulate an object as if you were manually handling it. Then you stop things like trying to pinch an artery closed and other things like that. As with the current Disarm option, if you keep opposed/resistance rolls any time you interact with something animate, and have the spell fail every time you fail the opposed test.
You could easily allow Skirmish/Knock Prone options with opposed tests. The precise distance of the skirmish option would need to be clarified. I'd probably go with 4 yards (the same SP cost as a Knock Prone or Disarm).
Granted, without any carrying capacity rules, it's hard to say how well someone can levitate things. And thus picking up a person is much harder to clarify.

Anyway, just some ideas.

[Ghostdanser]

Given that the Shape Earth description also states that the objects are pushed or pulled along the ground, but not levitated, I would argue that twice your Magic as the Strength equivalent is a bit generous for levitate. Instead I would say something like the size of the object you can levitate is determined when you split your Magic score between Dexterity and Strength. Once you have determined the Strength score, you can levitate something that a character with that Strength could lift and manipulate.

I can actually live with that, it keeps the spell from getting overpowered.

At the moment, the range of "visual" is pretty damn powerful. I can just imagine a Mage sitting on a castle wall with a telescope, levitating a weapon and attacking people thousands of yards away. "But I can still see what I'm doing!"

That does seem a bit much. You could always say no visual aids allowed...which eliminates telescopes, but also any spectacles...which could cramp style if a player wants their character to wear them. Hard to say what a good range would be, but I could live with 10 yards.