Courtesan Weapons from the Midgard Bestiary

[Elfie]

The Courtesan Weapons from the Midgard Bestiary were mentioned in another thread, which prompted me to go look them up again. I've got a Rogue who is looking to become an Assassin, so I'm thinking of having her trainer (Tallis) give her a set of these as part of her training.

I was considering a way to make these stand out specifically as an assassin's weapons. I can just arbitrarily say that only an assassin can use them, which I will probably do, but I was thinking of ways to actually turn them into preferred weapons for an assassin.

At first I was thinking of something like "they always do penetrating damage, but can only be used as part of a successful backstab." I think this is pretty simple and makes logical sense.

But then I noticed that the Hairpin already has a bonus to stealth checks and thought maybe each weapon could have some sort of special bonus of its own. The garrote mentions using a brawling attack to cut off the target's air supply, but a single damage roll doesn't seem to reflect that well. What if the garrote got an effect similar to the Enraged Corpse's Strangle Stunt? The Stiletto mentions being coated with a deadly poison that wears off after several attacks. That contradicts the existing poison rules, so what if the Stiletto lowers the cost of the Envenom Stunt by 1 SP, but the poison only lasts a few rounds instead of for the whole encounter?

[shonuff]

They sort of already have that. They all deal penetrating damage, and if you look at the Harem Assassin's attacks, the garrote can be used each turn as a major action to deal penetrating damage (unless there is a successful opposed roll acrobatics/might vs. brawling).

[Elfie]

Oh hey look, they DO deal penetrating damage! I totally didn't see that. I was honestly only looking at the weapons block, not at the Harem Assassin himself.

So then they all do penetrating, the hairpin gets a stealth bonus... the garrote has strangle rules. The only thing without a little extra flavor is the stiletto, so perhaps I'll just apply the "Envenom costs 1 SP less but poison wears off after X attacks" and call it a day.

[Elfie]

Additional question: Would it be unbalanced to say "these weapons are only usable by Assassins" ? Or, like Dueling Weapons, should they be their own weapon group, which Assassins get automatically, and other classes can take whenever they can pick a new weapon group?

[shonuff]

Oh hey look, they DO deal penetrating damage! I totally didn't see that. I was honestly only looking at the weapons block, not at the Harem Assassin himself.

So then they all do penetrating, the hairpin gets a stealth bonus... the garrote has strangle rules. The only thing without a little extra flavor is the stiletto, so perhaps I'll just apply the "Envenom costs 1 SP less but poison wears off after X attacks" and call it a day.

The flavor text says it wears off after 5 attacks, but I like the envenom stunt, too.

Additional question: Would it be unbalanced to say "these weapons are only usable by Assassins" ? Or, like Dueling Weapons, should they be their own weapon group, which Assassins get automatically, and other classes can take whenever they can pick a new weapon group?

Personally, I'd just give it to all rogues. It seems to me that if you go the bard-as-spy route, which I'm not terribly fond of if you compare their abilities with the role, then courtesan weapons would be a perfect fit for them.

[Elfie]

I'm kind of leaning toward keeping these with the weapon groups they've been assigned, but saying that these weapons can only be used as part of a successful backstab, which effectively restricts them to being used by rogues.

[shonuff]

That makes sense. Any of the weapons would be difficult to use in actual combat and would, imo, need an attack that wasn't anticipated.

Then again... I imagine an encounter with a harem assassin would require combat, and they would use the weapons they had. And probably not every attack would be a backstab.

[Elfie]

I'm more concerned with making these weapons work for PCs and PC-like NPCs than I am with keeping them logical for Harem Assassins. I figure Harem Assassins are very specifically trained to use these kinds of weapons in general combat. If a PC really wanted to use these exactly the same way that Harem Assassins do, I might let them forgo the actual Assassin specialization to do so, but I honestly don't see that ever coming up since my players are extremely unlikely to ever actually look at the Midgard Beastiary and I'm unlikely to use the Harem Assassin in our Dragon Age game.

[shonuff]

You might want to consider giving them a negative attack against armored opponents then to compensate for the precision needed in the strike. I think that would make up for the penetration damage.

[Elfie]

I kind of figured that requiring a backstab would satisfy the "it's extra hard to get an attack in with one of these."

But maybe that brings us back to giving them their own Weapon Group in order to explain the need for special training to get passed an opponent's armor?

[shonuff]

I kind of figured that requiring a backstab would satisfy the "it's extra hard to get an attack in with one of these."

Good point.

Also, on second thought, I was thinking that instead of being rogue-only, they could be given to bards/assassins, like dueling weapons are given to duelists? I think they're right up both specializations' alleys.

[Elfie]

I would disagree about the Bard. I know that in Dragon Age, a Bard is generally a spy, but a spy is not necessarily an assassin. I think a character who wanted to be both Bard and Assassin would have to take both specializations (assuming rules for doing so are in set 3).

Right now this is where I'm at:

Garrote: Works just like in the book, but I'm specifically noting that the victim can take no actions until the test is passed, which they may try once per turn at the beginning of their turn.

Hairpin: Works just like in the book, but I'm also allowing the bonus to apply to Bluff.

Stiletto: Lowers the cost of Envenom by 1 SP. (nixing the book's implication that the poison wears off)

All three weapons do penetrating damage, but can only be used as part of a successful backstab (or bluff). Failing the backstab means the weapon is treated as untrained for that attack (or the assassin could use their major action to do something else).

All three weapons are under a new Dexterity (Assassination) focus and weapon group. Assassins get the weapon group (but not the focus) automatically. Using these weapons without the weapon group gains the wielder none of the listed benefits.

Warriors or mages who gain the Assassination Weapon Group may still use these weapons by attempting a backstab per the rogue’s power, but they will not gain the rogue’s bonus to attack or damage.

[shonuff]

I would disagree about the Bard. I know that in Dragon Age, a Bard is generally a spy, but a spy is not necessarily an assassin. I think a character who wanted to be both Bard and Assassin would have to take both specializations (assuming rules for doing so are in set 3).

You're right that they may or may not be assassins, but I would assume that they would have some knowledge of incognito weaponry. Of course, you're mileage may vary.

Garrote: Works just like in the book, but I'm specifically noting that the victim can take no actions until the test is passed, which they may try once per turn at the beginning of their turn.

What about it takes a major action to make the strength check? A minor action would still be allowed, so the character could move a bit.

All three weapons are under a new Dexterity (Assassination) focus and weapon group. Assassins get the weapon group (but not the focus) automatically. Using these weapons without the weapon group gains the wielder none of the listed benefits.

Would there be a specific focus, or would it fall under light blades/brawling?

[Elfie]

What about it takes a major action to make the strength check? A minor action would still be allowed, so the character could move a bit.

Move while being choked? And... drag their attacker along with them? Seems a lot cleaner to just say they can't do anything until they pass the test, but as soon as they pass, they get their full turn.

Would there be a specific focus, or would it fall under light blades/brawling?

Yes there would be a new focus, which the Assassin (or anyone) could take as normal.

[JoJa]

Elfie,

In trying to decide how to run a player using courtesan weapons, maybe it would help if I explained some of my reasoning in presenting the Harem Assassin the way I did in the bestiary. First, the idea for the Harem Assassin as a monster entry came from a really great article by Stefen Styrsky in Kobold Quarterly #16. The article never gave a monster or NPC statblock, instead it was an awesome combination of background fluff and a small collection of new game elements for gamemasters who wanted to add courtesan assassins to their game. It gave the history of the different courtesan assassin schools in the Midgard setting, (only one of which became the basis for the Harem Assassin) and then included things such as new spells and magic items that thematically fit them as NPCs.

One part of the article that I thought was really neat was the inclusion of the three new weapons, which fit the courtesan archetype. That was something I wanted to include in the game if for no other reason than to help flesh out the NPCs who might be attacking the players, or more likely attacking other important NPCs the players would need to protect, avenge, or unravel the mystery of their death.

The reason they were broken into existing weapon groups was twofold: 1) that's how they were originally presented in the article but for Pathfinder proficiencies, and 2) this way if a player does happen to pick one up on the fly they have a reasonable chance (Light Blades and Brawling being reasonably common focuses, LB more so) of being able to wield one in combat.

Also note that when the book was written, the Set 2 rules only existed in playtest form, and the playtest documents did not include the equipment chapter, and thus had no rules for poisons. The stiletto as presented in the KQ article had poison imbued in the blade that wore off after five successful strikes, which I left in for the sake of the monster entry.

Now, having said all that, if I were to make these available for the players in my game, I would likely look for an existing game mechanic to model it after, which we already have in the dueling weapons group. Instead of tying it to a specialization, I would make the courtesan weapons group available through a Talent. This is because in my games I like to make certain weapons or groups of weapons thematic to certain assassin guilds, and I don't think every assassin is going to be equally versed in them.

As a talent, you could have the novice level grant use with the weapons, the journeyman level give a bonus to bluff tests because you've learned how to better conceal them, and finally the master level could provide for a strangulation attack using the garrote. Just as examples.

Now, if I were going to make the Harem Assassin a dedicated Rogue specialization. . . cough* Midgard campaign guide* cough, cough. . . I would give them the ability to use weapons from the group as a base, but I might also grant things such as the ability to use the Seduction focus as part of a bluff attack, for example.

Anyway, that's a long rambling rundown of how the Harem Assassin came to be as it is in the bestiary, and what I would do if a player wanted to use the weapons as an assassin. But I like your house rules as well. Just offering a different perspective.

[Elfie]

JoJa, thanks for chiming in!

If I had this mythical Midgard Campaign Guide, I might figure out a way to use the new specialization as you suggested But from a plot perspective, it's actually going to require that the character learn this stuff at the same time as she's learning to be an assassin. Also, the player doesn't actually know this is coming and I wouldn't want to force him into using up a talent slot to feed the story.

As a talent though, I wouldn't have felt the need to add the requirement of backstab. But without an existing rule for learning how to use the weapons, I thought the way I did it made it feel somewhat balanced and not like I was giving this one particular character a huge advantage.

And I definitely picked up that this was written before Set 2 was out. Looking forward to seeing the final product! I'm already planning to use Mycolids and Death Butterflies in our next session.

[shonuff]

I think even with a talent, the penetrating damage would be too powerful. With a backstab requirement, however, I think that weapons mesh nicely with existing weapons.