Orzammar Circle of Mages???

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Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:27 pm

This must be an update to the Dragon Age wikia, because I don't recall having seen it before...and I don't recall having heard it in the game epilogue...so I don't know where the information came from, if it is accurate...or even if it is canon. If it is true and canon...then it really could be interesting for post-blight games. I just am not sure what to make of this... :?:

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dagna

If the Warden succeeds in gaining her a place at the Tower, the epilogue will state that she writes "a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic". If the Circle has not been granted independence, "This inspired mages from other parts of Thedas to establish a new Circle of Magi in Orzammar itself, one that had ready access to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the Chantry's power completely. The willingness of Orzammar to harbor apostates sparked outrage that began whispers that the Divine was contemplating a new Exalted March."
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby shonuff » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:39 pm

I think in order to get that entry you cannot do anything with the dwarven chantry quest. Not sure, though... never got it myself.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Elfie » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:40 pm

She is there as a student, but the First Enchanter makes it very clear that she will never have any ability to do magic of any kind. She's just there to learn about it, not to practice it.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Disemvowel » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:02 pm

It's not the dwarf which is the issue, it is that apostates open a circle IN Orzimmar. That would be a goddamn fine pont in a campaign of how the Chantry would deal with this. They could siege to the dwarves, but to what end? Orzimmar can easily outlast anything they throw at it AND the dwarves defenders have high resistance to magic.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Pytorb » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:12 pm

I've got it at least once and yes I helped Dagna enter the tower and avoided Brother Burkel.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Saisei » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:56 pm

Yup I got it too but I had completely forgot about it.

Could be interesting in my campaign potentially, but i plan on having Ferelden consumed by the blight and the darkspawn essentially having their own country to build power from
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Disemvowel » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Saisei wrote:Yup I got it too but I had completely forgot about it.

Could be interesting in my campaign potentially, but i plan on having Ferelden consumed by the blight and the darkspawn essentially having their own country to build power from


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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Loswaith » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:47 pm

It makes for an interesting twist for the Chantry, they cant realy push for a war with the dwarves as they will cease to have lyrium with which to control templars, but also have the issue of there openly being an apostate collective.

There is also the factor of what do dwarves want with mages? They have great reasons to entice mages to become part of their culture as its an aspect dwarves dont naturally have access to, and while resistant to magic arent completly immune to it either.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:50 pm

This just brings up so many things to ponder...like how does an Orzammar Circle of Magi fit into the backdrop of the events in DA2?

IF the Chantry call for an Exalted March on Orzammar AND if they were to somehow win (mighty big ifs) what would the repercussions be? Would the Grey Wardens get involved? Normally they would try to avoid politics...but if the Dwarves fall then who fights the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads? If no one fights the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads then what would the next Blight be like for the number of Darkspawn? If the Grey Wardens don't help the Dwarves then they lose an ally in the next Blight. What would the Elves do? Would the Dalish side with the Dwarves or stay neutral?

This can go in so many different directions...I can't believe I missed this...that's the thing about DAO...depending on what you did you get different outcomes...I LOVE IT! (Well more like really, really like it...my wife might not approve of me loving it...but you get the point)
Last edited by Ghostdanser on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:01 pm

For those that got this in the epilogue...do you remember if you supported Bhelen or Harrowmont for king?

I'm wondering if that could also play a part, in addition to supporting Dagna and not supporting Brother Burkel.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Lynata » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:01 pm

Ghostdanser wrote:Would the Grey Wardens get involved?
Outside of issueing an official note of protest? I'd highly doubt it.

Allying with the target of an Exalted March would basically render them an enemy of all Thedan countries following the Maker's faith, and even though there are human nations falling outside this group that's still an awful lot. Furthermore, it would endanger ancient privileges - you can hardly push for the Right of Conscription when you're at war with the organization directly controlling the Mage Circles and the Templar Order, and indirectly (by popular support and administrative influence) the armies and the nobility of the realms.

It'd greatly depend on the country in question as well as the actual era, though. Post-DA:O, the Grey Wardens would enjoy a much better reputation and influence than before the Blight, when they are hardly even regarded as necessary and just kept around out of tradition, a little like the Night's Watch in A Song of Ice and Fire. Likewise, a comparison between the Warden's influence to the Chantry's might appear much different in Anderfels than in, say, Orlais.

But even so, if the Grey Wardens had to choose between the Dwarves and the human realms ... On the long run, a conflict with the Chantry might turn out to have the least effect on the overall defences of Thedas against the Darkspawn, for the human nations would endure, just the politics would change. The Dwarves and their defences, on the other hand, are pretty much irreplacable. On the short run, however, the likely upheaval that would result out of armed conflict between the Wardens and the Chantry would have a devastating effect on both morale and military capabilities of several countries, and the pressure might be too much for the Wardens to bear.

If they'd be clever, perhaps the Wardens could ally with the Tevinter Chantry (which would probably not have as much of an issue with an Orzammar mage collective), trying to convince everyone they are still of the Maker's faith and just attacking the Andrastean Chantry on behalf of wordly issues. This would at least result in any kind of warfare only conducted half-heartedly, I think, given that it'd be much harder for the individual nobles to choose sides, rather than allowing the Chantry to just label them as heretics.

Either way, it'd still have a very destabilizing effect, and it is doubtful if the Tevinter Chantry could so easily push the Andrasteans aside, as I don't see them giving up on the hearts and minds of people easily. The Grey Wardens would require much more public support, but the Chantry is closer to the people - and with that, their armies.

As for the Dalish, I don't think they would have much of an interest in the Dwarves or the Chantry. Whilst it is very likely they still hold a grudge, they are in no position to survive the fallout of openly opposing the Humans once more, with or without the Dwarves. The last Exalted March declared against their kind still stings.

Tl;dr: The Human realms are the most populous countries of all of Thedas. What usually prevents them from acting in unison are political borders separating fiefs from fiefs and kingdoms from kingdoms. However, what is able to unite many of them under a single banner is their faith, and with that, the Chantry. The Grey Wardens on the other hand are able to call upon powerful pacts and ancient vows in case of a Blight, but still they lack the same kind of influence over the common folk or the nobility.

The case of Warden-Commander Sophia Arlessa Dryden is a salutory lesson of what happens when the Grey Wardens become active in politics too much.
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:11 pm

Lynata...well thought out and probably pretty close to spot on.

Lynata wrote:Either way, it'd still have a very destabilizing effect, and it is doubtful if the Tevinter Chantry could so easily push the Andrasteans aside, as I don't see them giving up on the hearts and minds of people easily. The Grey Wardens would require much more public support, but the Chantry is closer to the people - and with that, their armies.


And the fact that Tevinter has it's own problems doesn't help matters. While the Tevinter Chantry may sympathize with an Orzammar Circle, the reality is Tevinter as a country is still at war with the Qunari. In the end I suspect that the Tevinter Chantry would probably do little more than protest vocally.

Lynata wrote:The case of Warden-Commander Sophia Arlessa Dryden is a salutory lesson of what happens when the Grey Wardens become active in politics too much.


But that may be an indicator of the possible outcome. The Grey Wardens might publicly state they are remaining neutral, however it is quite possible that some Grey Wardens, particularly those that know they have little time left in the world, might decide to "defy" the "official position" of the Grey Wardens and "resign" to fight with the Dwarves. While the Grey Wardens couldn't bring their full forces to bear, at least some veterans would probably assist the Dwarves...it is the kind of thing I expect Oghren would do. This might give the Grey Wardens as a whole plausible deniability and avoid the Chantry from seeking too harsh of a retribution later.

As for other humans...I wouldn't be surprised if the Avvar sided with the Dwarves. There appears to be a history of cooperation between them. Not that they would provide enough numbers to counter the Chantry forces.

And then there was this sick and twisted thought I had...mostly my warped humor...but still...could you just imagine if there were a...

First Enchanter Flemeth

>:D
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Lynata » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:25 am

Ghostdanser wrote:And the fact that Tevinter has it's own problems doesn't help matters. While the Tevinter Chantry may sympathize with an Orzammar Circle, the reality is Tevinter as a country is still at war with the Qunari. In the end I suspect that the Tevinter Chantry would probably do little more than protest vocally.
Aye, I'm thinking the same - I wasn't suggesting that Tevinter would actually lend military aid (sorry if I've been too ambiguous there), more that Thedas' "Anti-Pope" would try to dispell any attempts of the Andrasteans to render the Grey Wardens enemies of the faith itself rather than "just" political opponents. The Tevinter Chantry might even send missionaries over the border to convert the people (appeasing/swaying the population whilst simultaneously expanding their own influence), but as I said that might not work as well as they'd hope or might even backfire into an all-out civil war.

Ah, lots of possibilities. :D

Ghostdanser wrote:The Grey Wardens might publicly state they are remaining neutral, however it is quite possible that some Grey Wardens, particularly those that know they have little time left in the world, might decide to "defy" the "official position" of the Grey Wardens and "resign" to fight with the Dwarves. While the Grey Wardens couldn't bring their full forces to bear, at least some veterans would probably assist the Dwarves...it is the kind of thing I expect Oghren would do. This might give the Grey Wardens as a whole plausible deniability and avoid the Chantry from seeking too harsh of a retribution later.
That's a good point, actually - though in this case we'd be talking rogue elements, not "Grey Wardens" per se. And without official backing, the numbers of combatants participating in the conflict would be even smaller than if the Order as a whole would go to war.

Still, the idea of some sort of "Grey Warden Robin Hood" (in the vein of a single "fallen" Warden leading a motley band of commoners in guerilla attacks against the crusaders - or would they be called marchers? :P) siding with the Dwarves is ... interesting.

Ghostdanser wrote:First Enchanter Flemeth
A disturbing thought. ;)
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:24 am

Lynata wrote:Aye, I'm thinking the same - I wasn't suggesting that Tevinter would actually lend military aid (sorry if I've been too ambiguous there), more that Thedas' "Anti-Pope" would try to dispell any attempts of the Andrasteans to render the Grey Wardens enemies of the faith itself rather than "just" political opponents.


You weren't too ambiguous...I hadn't even considered how some of the other countries and chantries might react to an exalted march on Orzammar. My response was meant to be taken as amplifying material for your comments. As I said earlier...pretty close to spot on.

Lynata wrote:Still, the idea of some sort of "Grey Warden Robin Hood" (in the vein of a single "fallen" Warden leading a motley band of commoners in guerilla attacks against the crusaders - or would they be called marchers? ) siding with the Dwarves is ... interesting.


Ya know...that does sound like a fun idea...I'll have to think about it.

As for a First Enchanter Flemeth being a disturbing thought...well that pretty well sums up my thought processes rather nicely. I am just sick and twisted that way. :green:

Edit: Just had another thought and decided to add it here instead of putting up a new post. If this path were followed and a Orzammar Circle were created all due to the research of Dagna...then I wonder if Dagna could be named a Paragon?
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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Allensh » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:47 am

[MINOR POSSIBLE SPOILER BELOW]














I am thinking that not all of the events in the epilogue of DA:O occur between that game and DA 2. Some, I think, occur in the future.

And if you read Dragon Age Asunder you'll discover why the Chantry probably won't be bothering the dwarves anytime soon....

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Re: Orzammar Circle of Mages???

Postby Ghostdanser » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:31 am

Allensh wrote:I am thinking that not all of the events in the epilogue of DA:O occur between that game and DA 2. Some, I think, occur in the future.

And if you read Dragon Age Asunder you'll discover why the Chantry probably won't be bothering the dwarves anytime soon....


No doubt...the epilogues in DAO are variable based of the decisions made during the game...so Orzammar becoming a magnet for an apostate Circle of Mages might not even come to pass. Even if it does come to pass...nothing states how long Dagna's research takes before she produces her theory. If she was 19 when she started, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to say it takes 30 years to develop her theory...placing the events at least 20 years after DA2. Of course you could also say Dagna only needed 5 years to come up with her theory...meaning the timeline is compressed.

No matter how the events play out...nothing says the Divine would actually call for an Exalted March. But it is fun to speculate...

I haven't had a chance to read Asunder yet...but Barnes & Noble is showing it in stock, so I might swing by and pick it up later today...thanks! :green:
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