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Lynata wrote:So? It doesn't take much to simply assume that player characters fall in the overlap region of strong women and average men. Equality reached, problem solved, erosion of realism averted.Zapp wrote:You have seen women more muscular than some men, but you haven't seen women more muscular than the most muscular man.
If this doesn't work for you ... well, it doesn't work for you. I for one have no problem with it.Only once you factor in Dexterity advancements which increase speed as a side effect. Yet the reasoning behind dwarven speed (as I understand it!) is not a lack in dexterity - it's their size/build, and here I am not aware of any overlap between dwarves and humans. Just because it exists in one factor (Dex) doesn't mean the other needs to be neglected.Zapp wrote:AND IT IS THE SAME WITH DWARVES, just as the rules make clear. Two bell curves where the upper values of one beat the lower values of the other.1) You're playing a Dragon Age RPG. In this setting, dwarves and their build are clearly defined, period.Zapp wrote:1) I have never seen a Dwarf, period.
2) I wasn't discussing their size, but their speed, and their effective speed in tense situations to be precise.
2) Speed is affected by size, at least according to my interpretation of realism.I think that in this aspect, our interpretations of realism (and fantastic realism, when it comes to dwarves or elves) are simply incompatible. This argument could go on forever without coming to fruition.Zapp wrote:But they are both significant enough to warrant inclusion even in a simple game. If you subscribe to the "realism" reason, that is.
As I have nothing more to add (and I don't think you have, either, as we've been dancing in circles for the last few posts), I'll go ahead and simply drop it here. Feel free to add any closing words if you wish, but I shall try and take a step back from the discussion. Peace?
Hellebore wrote:Basically dwarves and elves are the only place that 'race' specific attributes can be dolled out without any inference of racial stereotyping - fantastic racism basically. It's alright to say that a dwarf has a small stride, but a bit of a faux pas to have 'Masai' with +2 speed and 'South East Asian' with -2, even if objectively their strides are at least as different if not more so than a dwarf and a human simply mechanically. Or that caucasians suffer more exposure damage in equatorial regions whilst Africans suffer more in higher lattitudes, including vitamin D deficiency that can result in rickets.
We are taught not to 'see' differences between humans that have phenotypic differences and this translates into RPGs where humans are never generally described differently in physical or mental capacity. At most human groups are defined by their starting skills/talents (as can be seen in the backgrounds of DA, as well as most other RPGs). Implying that all humans are the same and only their environmental upbringing differentiates them.
Which is what I have said all along with "height isn't everything, but it is one factor that can be taken into account".Hellebore wrote:You'll find that dwarves can and indeed do end up with equal or higher speeds than other races, especially when playing rogues. They are only 2pts lower than a human, which means they need 2 more pts of dex to equal their speed. Against a human mage most dwarf rogues will be as fast or faster.
Not at all. As touched upon on one of the previous pages, if we were to introduce gender modifiers, female adventurers could otherwise come with their own advantages - so in equalizing the genders, male adventurers get to be exceptional in areas where they'd otherwise be disadvantaged. Like Dexterity.Hellebore wrote:The only way to balance the strengths between the two would be to artificially constrain male character choice exceptionality to equal maximum female exceptionality. Which in the end means no extremely exceptional males are adventurers whilst only extremely exceptional females are.
Hmm, I always thought it'd be more because differences in fantasy races are "drilled into our heads" much more clearly, more consistently, and more pronounced.Hellebore wrote:Fantastical races have no real world counterpart so we can freely stereotype and otherwise impose static physical and mental limits on them without feeling as though we are racially profiling someone.
Lynata wrote:In closing, and as previously mentioned in passing, I do believe the differences between the various races in DARPG should stand out more ... a single +1 made obsolete with the very first levelup isn't going to cut it, and it does make Speed stand out to be the largest difference simply because it can range from 2-4 points in difference. It's not honestly bothering me, but I generally welcome the differences between fantasy or sci-fi races instead of trying to avoid them as (for me) they are part of the package, and part of what makes such characters unique and sets them apart from others.
shonuff wrote:The flaw in this statement is that you are comparing fantastic races to human races. Human races are largely an artificial construct, whereas IMO elves, dwarves, kossith, etc., would be better categorized as different species. While you are correct in stating that you can't really say Africans are faster than Asians, or Caucasians are stronger than Africans, or something along those lines, you can say that cheetahs are faster than lions and tigers are stronger than tabbies.
Hellebore wrote:Except even in Dragon Age successful interbreeding occurs between them. Half something something is a fairly standard fantasy trope. They aren't depicted as separate species at all. The Kossith perhaps, if you can't get half qunari...
Zapp wrote:No, Hellebore, that's actually not the case.
The reason most rpgs "abstract away" the difference in Strength between genders has nothing to do with this difference being small or easily being abstracted away.
Hellebore wrote:shonuff wrote:The flaw in this statement is that you are comparing fantastic races to human races. Human races are largely an artificial construct, whereas IMO elves, dwarves, kossith, etc., would be better categorized as different species. While you are correct in stating that you can't really say Africans are faster than Asians, or Caucasians are stronger than Africans, or something along those lines, you can say that cheetahs are faster than lions and tigers are stronger than tabbies.
Except even in Dragon Age successful interbreeding occurs between them. Half something something is a fairly standard fantasy trope. They aren't depicted as separate species at all. The Kossith perhaps, if you can't get half qunari...
Hellebore wrote:there are also human dwarf as well - there was an inference than Sandal could be one iirc. Hellebore
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