Homebrew Specialization

[Deirain]

Hello, friendly forum goers! I've got a player with a Nevarran Warrior that recently claimed he couldn't find a specialization that he liked and with the group rapidly approaching level 6, I decided to take a look at some homebrew options. He stated that he likes the flavor of the Duelist and wanted something similar without porting it into a Warrior specialization as well. Having played an Aldori Swordlord variant Fighter in Pathfinder a few times, I thought that Swordlords would make a great Dragon Age Warrior Specialization.

Anyway, here's what I've got so far, I would love some feedback from you guys:

Swordlord
Warrior Specialization

The Ayesleigh swordlords of Rivain are among the deadliest and most feared fighters in Thedas. They have spent long years mastering the bastard sword against both other blades and all manner of other weaponry. Their speed and reflexes weave a net of impenetrable steel around them, from which they strike and harry their unfortunate opponents. This specialization focuses on avoiding damage and disarming foes; swordlords prefer wearing light or no armor, trusting their skill with their blades for protection.

Swordlord Talent
Class: Warrior
Requirement: You must have Strength and Perception 3 or higher and Single Weapon Style (Novice).

You have mastered the grueling fighting style perfected by the Ayesleigh Swordlords.

Novice: You understand how to turn a single blade into an extension of yourself. When fighting in the Single Weapon Style and using a bastard sword, you gain a bonus to attack equal to the defense bonus granted from your Single Weapon Style talent. (If using Single Weapon Style (novice) for instance, you gain a +1 to attack and defense and (journeyman) grants a +2 to both attack and defense.)

Journeyman: Your ceaseless training has taught you that the most effective way to disarm an opponent is to simply cut the hand holding his weapon. When you successfully disarm an opponent through use of the Disarm stunt, you inflict an extra 1d6 damage.

Master: You have learned all the Ayesleigh Swordlords have to teach. When fighting in Single Weapon Style and an opponent successfully hits you, you can immediately attack that opponent as a free action. You may only do this once per round. After the attack, the normal initiative order resumes. This retaliation does not count as your turn.

*edit* Spelling errors and changed to Strength 3 requirement instead of Dexterity. (doh!)

[shonuff]

On first glance, I'd say Journeyman and Master might be too strong. Maybe d3 bonus damage for Journeyman? And the retaliation attack I would say uses a minor action with no chance of generating stunt points.

[Deirain]

Hey, Shonuff, thanks for the feedback. I spent some time going back and forth over the Journeyman rank, but I concluded that since it took stunt point generation and a successful disarm check that it could slide. Maybe if I made it a 3SP stunt that wasn't tied to the 2SP Disarm? Something like a Vicious Disarm? The Master rank I jacked straight from the Champion *edit* Guardian (thanks Elfie for the correction.) Set 3 Playtest, I'd like to keep it a free action, but I think you're right about including the fact that it can't generate stunt points so I don't have players trying to throw my own RAW in my face.

[Elfie]

I like this, but the Master level is REALLY strong. I know Guardian lets you get a counter-attack if someone attacks your guarded ally, but what you've got is pretty much a free extra attack every round.

I'd suggest that at the very least you specify that it does not generate stunt points and possibly that only half your strength applies. Both of these are established caveats for bonus attacks. That might puts it close to even ground with Duelist.

[Deirain]

Thanks for the help, Elfie, and it is duly noted. What about:

Master "Insert flavor text here." When fighting in Single Weapon Style and an opponent successfully hits you, you can immediately attack that opponent as a free action. You may only do this once per round. This attack cannot generate
stunt points, and you may not add your Strength to damage. After the attack, the normal initiative order resumes. This retaliation does not count as your turn.

I really like the idea that the attack is resolved so quickly that your character can't put any strength behind the blow, it's a jab instead of a straight or hook.

[Elfie]

I think that's solid for the Master level.

One thing to take into account with making a new stunt (Vicious Disarm) is that it would allow the player to both Disarm AND Vicious Disarm if they wanted. If you want to prevent that from happening, you could word it like: "When using the Disarm Stunt, you may use Mighty Blow for 1SP instead of two, but if the Disarm fails, so does the Mighty Blow."

This still makes it a very useful combo and keeps it in the spirit of your original talent without allow the player to double-up on stunt usage.

[Deirain]

Here's a couple of options I think might be viable fixes for the Journeyman Talent:

Vicious Disarm (3 SP cost): When choosing to Disarm an opponent, you may spend an additional stunt point to make it a Vicious Disarm. This decision must be made before the opposed attack roll. You and your opponent must make an opposed attack roll. These attack rolls do not generate stunt points. If you win the test, you knock your enemy’s weapon 1d6 + Strength yards away in a direction you nominate and you inflict an additional 1d6 damage on your attack. This stunt may not be used with Mighty Blow.

or...

Vicious Disarm (2+ SP cost): This stunt replaces the standard Disarm stunt for swordlords. You attempt to disarm the target with your melee attack. You and your opponent must make an opposed attack roll. These attack rolls do not generate stunt points. If you win the test, you knock your enemy’s weapon 1d6 + Strength yards away in a direction you nominate. Also, for each stunt point you spend above 2 on this stunt, you gain a +1 bonus to the opposed attack roll. (i.e. +1 at 3 SP, +2 at 4 SP, and so on.)

Which one do you guys think makes the most sense?

[Elfie]

I'd err on the side of keeping it simple.

With your first option, you're doing a lot of explaining of what you can or cannot do. Compare everything you wrote to what I wrote. "When using the Disarm Stunt, you may use Mighty Blow for 1SP instead of two, but if the Disarm fails, so does the Mighty Blow." They amount to exactly the same thing, but mine is much shorter.

For your second option, why not just make it "You may choose to re-roll a failed Disarm attempt. You must keep the result of the second roll. Your opponent does not re-roll." This, again, is much shorter, plays well with other re-roll Talents, and feels like a nice Master level ability.

[Deirain]

Alright, so with the input from both Shonuff and Elfie, here's an updated version of the Swordlord.

Swordlord
Warrior Specialization

The Ayesleigh Swordlords of Rivain are among the deadliest and most feared fighters in Thedas. They have spent long years mastering the bastard sword against both other blades and all manner of other weaponry. Their speed and reflexes weave a net of impenetrable steel around them, from which they strike and harry their unfortunate opponents. This specialization focuses on avoiding damage and disarming foes; swordlords prefer wearing light or no armor, trusting their skill with their blades for protection.

Swordlord Talent
Class: Warrior
Requirement: You must have Strength and Willpower 3 or higher and Single Weapon Style (Novice).

You have mastered the grueling fighting style perfected by the Ayesleigh Swordlords.

Novice: You understand how to turn a single blade into an extension of yourself. When fighting in the Single Weapon Style and using a bastard sword, you gain a bonus to attack equal to the defense bonus granted from your Single Weapon Style talent. (If using Single Weapon Style (novice) for instance, you gain a +1 to attack and defense and (journeyman) grants a +2 to both attack and defense.)

Journeyman: The simplest way to disarm an opponent is to strike the hand holding his weapon. When using the Disarm Stunt, you may use Mighty Blow for 1SP instead of two. If the Disarm attempt is unsuccessful, the Mighty Blow fails.

Master: You have learned all the Ayesleigh Swordlords have to teach. When fighting in Single Weapon Style and an opponent successfully hits you, you can immediately attack that opponent as a free action. You may only do this once per round. This attack cannot generate stunt points, and you may not add your Strength to damage. After the attack, the normal initiative order resumes. This retaliation does not count as your turn.

[Loswaith]

Looks good.

I wouldn't limit it to only bastard swords as typically player will gravitate to using the bastard sword anyway given it has the higher damage, so if a character realy wants to use it with a lesser blade its no issue, so limiting it to single handed blades could be a better way to go (though it could work with any single handed weapons).

For novice I'd just give the +1 attack bonus directly, given Single weapon style is a requirement, and the feel of the character that would take the specialisation would likely be mastering the single weapon style anyway. +2 attack from a novice rank is a bit more than others give and with the strength requirements the swordlord will have decent attack anyway.

For Journeyman I'd just give the disarm stunt a reduction in cost (making it more viable), and add something additional (prehaps an additional +1 to defence or +1 damage, though the defence seems more fitting). The character can then for 3 stunt points use mighty blow and disarm or use other stunts more frequently as well as the desire takes them. This plays up the aspect of them using disarms allot.

For master you could go the opposite route, and have the character gain an additional attack anytime they are not hit. It kind of plays up that the swordlord is getting a ripost, and playing on that they rely on the blades for defence as well. While it would be less often than if they are hit, there would be no need to limit the attacks, and they could effectivly get stunt points as well, if the desire is to go that way.

Just a few alternative ideas as food for thought, to take or leave as you wish.

[Deirain]

Thanks for the input, Loswaith.

I see where you're coming from with the weapon choice, I'll make that change for sure.

For the novice talent, I like where it's at for a few reasons. 1. It's a fairly hefty stat requirement when you add it all up, 3 Strength, 3 Willpower, and 2 Perception. Using the 10 point buy system, with background benefits (using the 3 point buy) and leveling up, that requires 8 of the 17 stat points a character is awarded. 2. It's an investment of three talents to get the +2 to attack, factoring in Warrior starting talents, he'll have to burn either his level 3 or 5 talent to meet the prereqs before level 6, which could translate to skipping Armor Training (Journeyman).

For Journeyman, using what you, Shonuff, and Elfie have all said, I think you're right that it would be much easier to just give the reduction in SP cost for Disarm and leave it at that. I'm getting entirely too wordy to describe Disarm with bonus damage.

The Master rank is right where I want it at this point, it can't be taken before level 10 based on the rules, is situational, because there is still a chance that an opponent misses, and Dual-Wield Style players can get access to the Master rank as early as level 6 if they were so inclined.

With all the great feedback you guys have given me, I think I'm getting really close to finishing this thing up and introducing it to my player. I pray to the gaming gods that he likes it and I'm really looking forward to roleplaying him finding his trainer.

[Deirain]

Thanks to all the great input from Shonuff, Elfie, and Loswaith, here is the completed homebrew specialization.

Swordlord
Warrior Specialization

Swordlord Talent
Class: Warrior
Requirement: You must have Strength and Willpower 3 or higher and Single Weapon Style (Novice).

Novice: When fighting in the Single Weapon Style you gain a +1 bonus to attack in addition to the defense bonuses granted by the style.

Journeyman: You can perform the Disarm stunt for 1 SP instead of the usual 2.

Master: If you make an attack while using Single Weapon Style, and are not charging, you may Prepare as a minor action to execute a counter attack against an opponent that makes a melee attack against you as a free action. The counter attack cannot generate stunt points, and you only add half of your Strength (rounded down) to damage. You may only counter attack once per round.

[Elfie]

Woah, adding Prepare into the mix really confuses me. Now I have no idea how the talent works. Is your intention that this uses up your next major action?

Actually, after re-reading it a dozen times, I THINK I see your intent... you only get your counter-attack if you are in Single Weapon Style and you haven't used a Minor Action this turn. I guess that makes sense, but I think using Prepare is really confusing. If I interpreted your new intent correctly, I would word it something like "While in the Single Weapon Style, if you did not use a Minor Action on your turn... (etc etc)." or better yet "(mechanics of counter-attack), but you forgo your minor action on your next turn."

The problem here is that if the warrior gets the ability to attack as a minor action, that's always going to be a better choice than using their counter attack. I think the talent was fine how it was before.

[Deirain]

Woah, adding Prepare into the mix really confuses me. Now I have no idea how the talent works. Is your intention that this uses up your next major action?.

Bollocks, sorry! That wasn't supposed to be the draft posted, that was the first iteration of the Master rank. My fault!

Master: When fighting in Single Weapon Style and an opponent successfully hits you, you can immediately counter attack that opponent as a free action. You may only do this once per round. This attack cannot generate stunt points, and you may only add your half your Strength (rounded down) to damage. After the attack, the normal initiative order resumes. This retaliation does not count as your turn.

[shonuff]

I can't help but think that an extra 2d6+1 every round is going to end up being too strong of a bonus, especially after level 15, with Quick Strike. That's a base of 6d6+1 (avg. 22), before stunts, poison, strength, etc.

What abouse basing it off of defense mode? I would still limit the strength input (either half or none as you said) and eliminate the stunt point generation.

[Deirain]

What abouse basing it off of defense mode? I would still limit the strength input (either half or none as you said) and eliminate the stunt point generation.

Do you mean something along the lines of using the Defend major action and gaining a minor action attack when using Defend?

[Loswaith]

I can't help but think that an extra 2d6+1 every round is going to end up being too strong of a bonus, especially after level 15, with Quick Strike. That's a base of 6d6+1 (avg. 22), before stunts, poison, strength, etc.

What abouse basing it off of defense mode? I would still limit the strength input (either half or none as you said) and eliminate the stunt point generation.

Actually it is still weaker than dual weapon style (up until quick strike), as that gives you an attack for a minor action reguardless of whether you are hit or not and its just a normal talent. Dont forget too with quick strike a beserker would be getting +3 damage to two attacks, while using a 3d6 weapon, so they would be doing 6d6+4 with damage rerolls as opposed to the 6d6+1 of the Swordlord, before other modifiers.

Personaly because it is a master rank of a specialisation I see no reason why you cant just give the extra attack (whether attacked, hit or not) as a minor action. Or have it a free action as the retaliation if attacked in melee, regardless of whether the character is hit or not, which seems to be more fitting for what Deirain is after, and gives it that bit of difference from dual weapon style. It also doenst have the downside of that it is actually an incentive to get hit for the Swordlord (a counter intuative aspect), and thus getting the defence bonuses for Single Weapon Style is somewhat of a penality.

It makes it a bit more powerful than using a minor action for an additional attack and would require the Swordlord to be attacked. It also means that it is still a good option when compared to weapon and shield style, two handed style or dual weapon style (and some other specialisation) once the warrior has quick strike.

If you wanted the retaliation to work as a minor action you could add that it takes an activate action each round to maintain the 'stance', though I dont think that is needed given a warriors alternative options.

[shonuff]

Actually it is still weaker than dual weapon style (up until quick strike), as that gives you an attack for a minor action reguardless of whether you are hit or not and its just a normal talent.

But it's stronger than just about every other specialization. Assassins get a d6 on successful backstabs. It's only 1d6 and it requires a minor action; Swordlord gives an extra 2d6+1 when the PC is attacked.

Dont forget too with quick strike a beserker would be getting +3 damage to two attacks, while using a 3d6 weapon, so they would be doing 6d6+4 with damage rerolls as opposed to the 6d6+1 of the Swordlord, before other modifiers.

They should. A 2-handed weapon should do more damage than a 1-handed weapon.

[Deirain]

I did some serious theorycrafting and came up with some interesting results. 1. Shonuff is right, that 3 attacks per round pushes things too far for the Swordlord. 2. Berserkers get downright freaking stupid at level 15+.

Here's my math.

We're going to assume that the Rogues have a Dex of 5 and a Strength of 3, Warriors will be assumed to have a Dex of 3 and a Strength of 5.

Single Weapon (Master)/Swordlord (Master)
Attack=9 (Focus, Swordlord, Str) Defense=15 (SWS, Dex) Bonus Damage=7 (Veteran, Str)
Weapon=Bastard Sword
Standard Round of Actions= Attack x3 (Attack, Quick Strike, Counterattack)
Base Damage=(2d6+8)+(2d6+6)+(2d6+5)
Average Damage=40

Dual Weapon (Master)/Duelist (Master)
Attack=9 (Focus, DWS, Dex) Defense=16 (DWS, Dex) Bonus Damage=4 (Duelist, Str)
Weapons=Rapier, Main Gauche
Standard Round of Actions= Attack x2 (Attack, Off-hand Attack)
Base Damage=(1d6+7)+(1d6+3)
Average Damage=17

Dual Weapon (Master)/Assassin (Master)
Attack=11 (Focus, DWS, Dex, Backstab) Defense=15 (Dex) Bonus Damage=4 (Mark of Death, Str)
Weapon=Morningstar
Standard Round of Actions=Attack (Backstab)
Base Damage=(3d6+7)
Average Damage=17.5

Two-Hander (Master)/Berserker (Master)
Attack=8 (Focus, Str) Defense=12 (Dex, Berserker) Bonus Damage=10 (Veteran, Berserker, Str)
Weapon=Two-handed Sword
Standard Round of Actions=Attack x 2 (Attack and Quick Strike)
Base Damage=(3d6+10)+(3d6+8)
Average Damage=39

[shonuff]

Dual Weapon (Master)/Duelist (Master)
Attack=9 (Focus, DWS, Dex) Defense=16 (DWS, Dex) Bonus Damage=4 (Duelist, Str)
Weapons=Rapier, Main Gauche
Standard Round of Actions= Attack x2 (Attack, Off-hand Attack)
Base Damage=(1d6+7)+(1d6+3)
Average Damage=17

Dual Weapon (Master)/Assassin (Master)
Attack=11 (Focus, DWS, Dex, Backstab) Defense=15 (Dex) Bonus Damage=4 (Mark of Death, Str)
Weapon=Morningstar
Standard Round of Actions=Attack (Backstab)
Base Damage=(3d6+7)
Average Damage=17.5

Duelists would probably be better off backstabbing because at 15, they'd get perforate. And I find that rogues are far more likely to use poison, as warriors tend to invest in armor and weapons (I find).

[Deirain]

I'm just going off of pure averages using a specializations standard attack. But if you factor a rogue using backstab and perforate, you'd have to factor in stunt usage for the warriors as well, which would put the math in roughly the same spot.

A 15th Level Master Assassin using Perforate and Envenom with a morningstar at 3 strength (using 4 stunt points we'll say) is going to deal (3d6+7)+(3d6+7)+(2d6<penetrating>)=42 damage, 7 of which is penetrating.

A 15th Level Master Berserker using Lethal Blow with a Two-Handed Sword at 5 strength (using the same 4 stunt points and Quick Strike) is going to deal (3d6+10)+(2d6<lethal blow>)+(3d6+8)=46 damage.

The numbers look similar, and if the Rogue and Warrior were fighting the same NPC with no armor, it would be a fairly close run. But, once you start adding in the armor ratings, things go downhill for the Rogue very quickly.

[Loswaith]

I'm not sure where you get only 7 points of penetrating damage as that would be dependant on the targets armour rating.

Keep in mind that the barbarian gets to reroll the damage with master two handed weapon style which is likely to increase the average damage by 2-3 points.
Assuming someone rerolls below average (10 or less) any damage rolls 11+ actually have twice the chance to show up than a normal damage roll.

Also keep in mind that with 5 strength a warrior can use twin bastard swords as eairly as level 5 for two attacks, so you have someone doing significant damage without a specialisation (or even the ability to get one) or they can be using a Bastard Sword and Shield and getting an additional +2 defence (from level 5) over the swordlord (who wont be doing 2 attacks until level 10), again without a specialisation.

Actually it is still weaker than dual weapon style (up until quick strike), as that gives you an attack for a minor action reguardless of whether you are hit or not and its just a normal talent.

But it's stronger than just about every other specialization. Assassins get a d6 on successful backstabs. It's only 1d6 and it requires a minor action; Swordlord gives an extra 2d6+1 when the PC is attacked.

Actually the assissin just gets an extra 1d6, for no cost, as they have to use a minor action to use backstab, which is +2d6 for an assassin. Its not conditional on them using an extra minor action when backstabing to get the extra 1d6, it is the same minor action they have always been using for backstab. The assassin also gets a free dirty fighting attack which means all its attacks can be backstabs without the minor action.
Though it is much like comparing a rogue to warrior, as the rogue cant take swordlord and the warrior cant take assassin.
Sure the additional attack is more potential damage than other specialisations get (once they hit 15) but it also has the weakest weapon style as a requirement.

Dont forget too with quick strike a beserker would be getting +3 damage to two attacks, while using a 3d6 weapon, so they would be doing 6d6+4 with damage rerolls as opposed to the 6d6+1 of the Swordlord, before other modifiers.

They should. A 2-handed weapon should do more damage than a 1-handed weapon.

I do agree that it should do more damage natively, and it does. I also believe skill should enable the character to equal out the damage (which is why an assassin can do 3d6+2 damage with a shortsword). It also comes down to desirable options. Without some significant advantage in taking Swordlord as a specialisation, the warrior is about the same place without a specialisation than with the Swordlord one.

Keep in mind that the two handed weapons still do more damage (3d6 vs 2d6+1) and it takes the swordlord 3 attacks with the highest damage single handed weapon to even get close to the damage a beserker can do with 2 attacks. The Swordlord also is getting attacked (or hit), the beserker doesnt need to be however.

[shonuff]

Actually the assissin just gets an extra 1d6, for no cost, as they have to use a minor action to use backstab, which is +2d6 for an assassin. Its not conditional on them using an extra minor action when backstabing to get the extra 1d6, it is the same minor action they have always been using for backstab. The assassin also gets a free dirty fighting attack which means all its attacks can be backstabs without the minor action.

Regardless of wording, the point is still the same -- the assassin's bonus d6 requires a minor action be spent (actually at least 2). The swordlord's would just require being hit.

Sure the additional attack is more potential damage than other specialisations get (once they hit 15) but it also has the weakest weapon style as a requirement.

IMO, balance isn't just based on damage. Equivalent damage dice just ends up with everything being equal... why not do more with status in order to compensate?

[Deirain]

I'm not sure where you get only 7 points of penetrating damage as that would be dependant on the targets armour rating.

I was factoring in Average Damage for Envenom using Concentrated Crow poison, Loswaith. I should have noted that in my post, sorry.

Anyway, since we've veered slightly off-topic, I'm looking into changing the Master level ability to something based off of the Defense major action or a Parry manuever. I'll go into more detail later on, but the general gyst is:

Defense Master Ability: When making a melee attack, you may use Defend as a minor action. (Not as powerful as another attack, but another +2 boost to Defense is viable even later in levels when choosing between more Defense or Quick Strike.)

or...

Parry Master Ability: You may, as a free action once per round attempt to parry/deflect an incoming attack with an opposed attack roll. This attack roll may not generate stunt points.

IMO, balance isn't just based on damage. Equivalent damage dice just ends up with everything being equal... why not do more with status in order to compensate?

While I will agree with this statement, Shonuff, the Set 3 playtest just seems broken to me at this point. There is nothing that a Rogue can do in Set 3 that a Warrior can't do better. Rogues get inferior armor, inferior weapons, and other than backstab, all of their real damage is based almost entirely on stunt point generation. Honestly, I think they need a more consistent damage boost and some sort of class bonus to Defense to even out the differences. But, that is a discussion for another day.

[shonuff]

Defense Master Ability: When making a melee attack, you may use Defend as a minor action. (Not as powerful as another attack, but another +2 boost to Defense is viable even later in levels when choosing between more Defense or Quick Strike.)

or...

Parry Master Ability: You may, as a free action once per round attempt to parry/deflect an incoming attack with an opposed attack roll. This attack roll may not generate stunt points.

I like both of these, and I don't think DA has a parry mechanic.

While I will agree with this statement, Shonuff, the Set 3 playtest just seems broken to me at this point. There is nothing that a Rogue can do in Set 3 that a Warrior can't do better. Rogues get inferior armor, inferior weapons, and other than backstab, all of their real damage is based almost entirely on stunt point generation. Honestly, I think they need a more consistent damage boost and some sort of class bonus to Defense to even out the differences. But, that is a discussion for another day.

True. Single Weapon Master is moot because of Slippery, and Dual Wield Master is iffy because of Perforate/Quick Strike.

I was thinking about changing Dual Wield Master to being a free action (with the same penalties and caveats as RAW) if the off-hand weapon is a light weapon (which I would categorize as having a base damage of 1d6+x). So duelists could still bluff/backstab and warriors would be able to use quick strike, but you wouldn't have some powergamer running around with 2 bastard swords.