Heal spell vs loss of limb

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Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby rschweik » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:32 am

I searched the forums and the web, but can't quite figure out if Healing can magically create a lost limb. According to the spell description in the PHB, "your touch seals wounds and restores vigor". From this description, this does not mean that you can create limbs from nowhere. Being able to attach a lost limb could be possible, but then if it is not done quickly, the "limb" might die. Also, if you attach someone else's arm to replace yours, I would think it would be like organ replacement where there is a strong chance that your body would reject it...

What are your thoughts...
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby shonuff » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:45 am

I would say a Heal spell would not, but a Rejuvenate could.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby rschweik » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:03 pm

shonuff wrote:I would say a Heal spell would not, but a Rejuvenate spell could.


Would you allow players level 5 or lower to attain the Rejuvenate spell, being a spell in Set 2?

Forum user Firallon created rules for Specific Injuries, Critical Injuries, and Healing Kits, an extremely well thought out rule-set. For NPCs who would not come into contact with mages often, and would most likely be wary of them due to Ferelden's mistrust of magic, I think there would be laymen without limbs, such as Bann Kroll, also known as "Bankroll", in the Adventure ABTN, who has a leg missing, lost during the time Orlais occupied Ferelden.


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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby si1vergecko » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:25 pm

rschweik wrote:
shonuff wrote:I would say a Heal spell would not, but a Rejuvenate could.


Would you allow players level 5 or lower to attain the Rejuvenate spell?


I don't see why not as long as they meet the prereqs. I personally would not recommend it so soon simply because of the higher target number, mana costs as well as the dreaded magical mishaps.

As for the argument above, I agree as is that heal or any heal spell alone cannot regrow a lost limb. We had a lava incident with one of the characters in our game and even with healing she still has scars from it. Not that there are official rules for losing limbs either.

That said I can totally buy placing a severed limb back on by holding it up and having it useable after, though I would also probably do a cunning (heal) check of some sort with it to see how well it is lined up or even usable after the fact.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Loswaith » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:39 pm

I'd likely go with no, in that magic cant regrow parts of the body, only repair them (ie nit bone, heal flesh, repair tendons and nerves). However not being familur with the specific injury rules im not that certain how frequent limb loss is going to be, which would impact that decision.

Most likely though I would allow reattaching of limbs/extremities, but would increase the TN of the heal spell (as it needs to be targeted more specifically), and it must be a 3d6 heal (which wont recover any health just reattach the lost limb/extremity), and more than likely require a healing test to align the limb/extremity close enough for the magic to do it's work (though the alignment could be done by anyone, it wouldnt need to be the mage thats healing).
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby zanwot » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:04 am

I was thinking obviously no, but thinking about it I would authorize it in a very specific circumstance:
Limb still "fresh", cunning/surgery very hard roll to attach the limb, and then a heal spell to try to connect the flesh, only one try then the wound is cauterized and limb cannot be attached. So same line of thinking as Loswaith.

But I would not tell the players. And if they try heal on the limbless person without attaching the limb properly first they would cauterize the wound making it impossible to get the limb back in that way. The only thing then would be for the players to do a quest to find a rare healing salve that would slowly regrow the limb (in a matter of at least months).

Scars, old wounds, and lost limbs seem appropriate in Dragon Age. The heal spell is only so generic to keep in line with the system's simplicity in my view.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby tarnishedarmour » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:08 pm

In the graphic novel it did, once. But this was considered unusual and something of outstanding power.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Tiger's Heart » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:54 am

The Set 3 Playtest says the following about the Regeneration Spell (far more powerful than Heal):

Grievous wounds close and broken bones knit together as you speed up a subject's natural
healing to accomplish in an hour what would normally take weeks. The subject regains 3d6 +
your Magic in Health and is cured of any major injuries, such as broken bones or damaged
organs.
Powerful as this spell is, it cannot be used to reattach severed body parts. It is also unable to cure
diseases or neutralize poisons, though it can reduce symptoms and repair any organ damage
suffered.


Rejuvenate and Mass Rejuvenation are simply heal over time spells, and less powerful in effect than Regeneration although more so than a simple Heal.

So if Regeneration cannot reattach a limb, then I doubt anything could. Regrowing a lost limb would, I think, be even less likely. These spells simply use the bodies resources plus those of the mage, and there couldn't be something created out of nothing.

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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby shonuff » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:04 am

Tiger's Heart wrote: =So if Regeneration cannot reattach a limb, then I doubt anything could. Regrowing a lost limb would, I think, be even less likely. These spells simply use the bodies resources plus those of the mage, and there couldn't be something created out of nothing.

Tiger's Heart


Except if you are going to play with limb-loss rules, I would thnk you would have to have a way to fix the condition, unless rolling another character is fixing the condition.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Hellebore » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:17 am

But as GR haven't written those rules into the game, their spells can't do it. So if you are going to add them and want spells to negate it, then IMO that would require adding an additional spell specifically to deal with it, rather than changing preexisting spells that already say they can't. Otherwise you're changing preexisting concepts rather than simply adding to them.

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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Zapp » Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:41 am

Before discussing what (if any) spells that can heal a certain condition (such as losing a limb), the question must be asked: can this condition happen in the game? Does the rules support loss of limb?

Many fantasy games simply do not detail any such results; you either have remaining hit points (and are alive) or you have no hit points (and you are dead). Such games do not need any limb loss rules.

Even if your fantasy game does allow for limb loss through combat, the next question is: perhaps it is intentional that this condition remains incurable (through standard means)?

Only if the answer to these questions is "yes" and "no" can you claim there has been an oversight in the design.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Lynata » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:53 am

Aye - Dragon Age being "dark fantasy" it may very well be intentional that magic isn't a "fix-all". I remember Knight-Captain Evangeline in Asunder having scars all over her body, even after being subjected to a healing spell, so there are certain conditions magic cannot cure. Same for death; even a recently deceased character (as in mere seconds dead) cannot be brought back to life by simply casting some standard spell.

I'd also say that implementing both rules for complete loss of limbs as well as means to easily "regrow" them cancel each other out - it just won't be as "dramatic" when people know it can be fixed. Characters trying to cope with this situation, however? There certainly is potential in the concept of a peg-legged PC trying to "move on" (preferrably after some downtime), and in the name of heroism I'd support smaller penalties than one might otherwise expect of such a condition. Retiring such a character is certainly an option, but not the only one. Some P&P RPGs offer the character only having one arm, leg or eye as starting options - and how could we forget figures such as ASoIaF's "Onion Knight" or all those pirates? ;)

But an important factor would also be how exactly those rules for loss of limb are designed, I think. Can it happen anytime or only below a certain hitpoint threshold? Does it happen automatically or is there a chance? How big is that chance? etc - things the other players of the respective group should have a say in.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby shonuff » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:01 am

Hellebore wrote:But as GR haven't written those rules into the game, their spells can't do it. So if you are going to add them and want spells to negate it, then IMO that would require adding an additional spell specifically to deal with it, rather than changing preexisting spells that already say they can't. Otherwise you're changing preexisting concepts rather than simply adding to them.

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As it is not in-game now, IMO the weakness of regeneration is more flavor because as of now there are no official loss-of-limb rules. If you are adding those rules, then you need a way to counter-act the effect unless you are going to allow for the possibility of 2-hander specialists being need to be re-rolled or want to add in rules for learning to fight with an off hand. IMHO, it's simpler to use an existing similar spell, but your mileage may vary. Of course, adding a "Regrow Limb" spell that has as a pre-req "Regeneration" could also easily explain why most limb loss would be permament.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Loswaith » Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:01 pm

Given the spell, it's quite possible that GR intends to add an Injuries mechanic similare to that of DA:O where when you hit 0 HP and survive you get an injury, and the Regeneration spell will be a way to fix those injuries.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Lynata » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:01 pm

This would actually be a fairly cool idea, given that those injuries are also something that doesn't affect gameplay too much (they were "just" really inconvenient) -and- that you don't need magic to cure them. :)

That said, perhaps such injuries should appear sooner than just at a 0 HP survival. After all ... how often do those happen?

Might be an idea for a new enemy stunt, though ...
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Hellebore » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:52 am

I have the following in vault:

If the Dragon Die on any attack roll is a 6 and the target suffers Damage equal to or more than their Constitution value, they have suffered an Injury.


Not that common, but can potentially happen every time you suffer damage.

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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby rschweik » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:51 pm

bump
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Athras » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

Loswaith wrote:Given the spell, it's quite possible that GR intends to add an Injuries mechanic similare to that of DA:O where when you hit 0 HP and survive you get an injury, and the Regeneration spell will be a way to fix those injuries.


The choice of how to do such things really is up to the GM, as far as I know GR doesn't have rules for broken bones either, but when my character lobbed a stonefist at a blighted owl being held by another character, it was the GM's decision to have his arm broken, and it took an implied regeneration spell at the Circle Tower for it to be fixed.
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Re: Heal spell vs loss of limb

Postby Hellebore » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:30 pm

Athras wrote:
Loswaith wrote:Given the spell, it's quite possible that GR intends to add an Injuries mechanic similare to that of DA:O where when you hit 0 HP and survive you get an injury, and the Regeneration spell will be a way to fix those injuries.


The choice of how to do such things really is up to the GM, as far as I know GR doesn't have rules for broken bones either, but when my character lobbed a stonefist at a blighted owl being held by another character, it was the GM's decision to have his arm broken, and it took an implied regeneration spell at the Circle Tower for it to be fixed.



I created a set of cards you can print out with different injuries on them inspired by the computer game and some rules that govern injuries in Esoterica 1 which you can find in my signature. They might provide some inspiration.

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