A Dragon Age and AGE Update

[MacGrein]

Yep! They should work harder ...
I know they would be right now working the best they can, but still... no one likes when things get too late or left on the dirty corner of forgetfulness...

[shonuff]

Another thing I would like to see are more physical products. The problem that I see with DLC is that it's great if you know to look for it, but product in-store builds a bigger buzz. For example, I know that I often forget about great Web series when they return for later seasons (until I remember them), but physical releases I'm more likely to know about their release dates.

[kronovan]

I'll ditto Zapp - well said. I have to be honest though, and admit that I've already taken the setting to another RPG system. If I were to be selfish I'd just call for more adventures, because that's all my gaming group and I really need and want. I do however think there's a good fanbase for the setting and the DAGE RPG, so in the greater interest I'd vote for getting box set 3 out before Xmas so that existing groups can run the completed game over the holiday season.

Normally I'd agree 100% with this

The problem that I see with DLC is that it's great if you know to look for it, but product in-store builds a bigger buzz.

but I have to admit I can generate zero interest for this PnP in my neck of the woods now - not all GR's fault though. Only 3 out of the roughly 25 stores in my city carry any of the DAGE products and when I recently mentioned it to other LGS owners the usual comment was something like "Oh yeah Dragon Age, I hear they finally released the 2nd part of that". To which I can say little of anything to change their impression of it. When I try to generate interest amongst fans of the videogame, they for the most part think the franchise is in decline and a casualty of the EA combine - citing the poorer effort of DA 2 as proof. Even die hard fans of the canon I've talked to feel DA Asunder was a fairly weak entry for the novels and an indicator the series might be fizzling.

I wouldn't say GR completely lost me as a customer on this product, as I'll still buy adventures - heck will probably even buy BS3 when its out - but so much time without a status update or any post in this forum, definitely soured my enthusiasm for it.

[shonuff]

But I wonder if the low store inventory might be in part based on the low supplemental product level? More adventure products, like Blood in Ferelden, might bring in more interest. Maybe not, though, and that could be GR or EA-Bioware.

[Scott McFarland]

It's a sad day when your FLGS isn't stocking DA RPG products any more.

I'm not saying my group has the attention span of a box of kittens but there are lots of other games out there publishing cool stuff to play. Paizo puts out more stuff for Pathfinder every month than GR has done for DA in three years!

[zanwot]

Zapp makes some points that speak to me, however there are a few things that I feel should be put into perspective.

It is unfair to compare Dragon Age to PathFinder, the number 2 current super heavy weight RPG, and even WFRP.
Given my experience of Mongoose publishing products, it is also unfair to compare Green Ronin to MGP, seen the quality of their production has nothing to do. (I mean the quality of GRR is much better, by the way. MGP is the example of sacrificing quality for quantity)

I also know that the general view on supplements, and in particular adventures modules, is very debated, especially from the editor's point of view.
However it is a fact that it is the adventure modules which give life to a roleplaying game, and Dragon Age is suffering from the apparent lack of dedication from the part of Green Ronin. It is a bit of a waste.

I must say I am amazed nothing is being done with A Song of Ice and Fire from GReen Ronin, at least nothing "efficient", as that setting really is the one they could surf the wave on!

[shonuff]

I also know that the general view on supplements, and in particular adventures modules, is very debated, especially from the editor's point of view.

I've personally found that RPGs that rely on fan-content tend to fade into obscurity and also-ran status. You say it's unfair to compare DA to Pathfinder? On the one hand, that might be true becausePathfinder doesn't have to deal with the extra licensing hoop, but on the other hand, I remember when no one played Pathfinder. How'd they get the market exposure? Probably a lot of ways, but releasing content certainly helps.

However it is a fact that it is the adventure modules which give life to a roleplaying game, and Dragon Age is suffering from the apparent lack of dedication from the part of Green Ronin. It is a bit of a waste.

Right... there have been like 2 DA specific DA releases this year, and only a couple of AGE DLCs. IMO, if nothing else, GR should have released DA-friendly AGE adventure books. There's been little publisher released content, and most of the discussion seems to have turned to converting AGE.

I must say I am amazed nothing is being done with A Song of Ice and Fire from GReen Ronin, at least nothing "efficient", as that setting really is the one they could surf the wave on!

I think the timing this season was wasted... Releasing the GoT version of the core rule book might have gained some interest, but IMO there should have been a sourcebook or something of new content released, as well. With the popularity of the series,it woulf have been a great time to release the SIFRP starter set, but that's gotten about as much attention lately as the Deep Roads adventures set.

[Loswaith]

...
Right... there have been like 2 DA specific DA releases this year, and only a couple of AGE DLCs. IMO, if nothing else, GR should have released DA-friendly AGE adventure books. ...

Keep in mind we have no idea how much Bioware/EA are draging their heels with the approvals (which GR likely cant realy say either way), or even if GR as part of the licence can create and submit anything more than a single document at a time. If Bioware/EA has only approved those two and the DLC (specific to DA), thats what we are stuck with, regardless of what GR would like to give us.

That said, I'm fairly sure all of us would want to be seeing more DA material.

[shonuff]

True. I'm sure the approval process adds some extra headaches (maybe even migraines lol). However, from the original post, it seems (and I could be mistaken) that the mechanics of Set 3 aren't finished. While I'm fine with the core rules being broken into bite-sized bits, IMO GR dropped the ball in two very importants ways.

1) Even with the approvals factored in, there needed to be a tighter timetable scheduled from the get-go. Originally, all 3 sets should have had release dates. And I think a 6-month goal would have eased the pain of ineviteable delays in approvals/proofing/publishing.

2) IMO the mechanics for the game should have been completed before Set 1 was released. As is, AGE feels like a few great opening levels that falls apart. Look at the Ability Advancement debacle -- IMO it's obvious that abilities weren't tested at higher levels when the concept was originally introduced. And the fix is about as bad.

And while GR may be handcuffed by EA/Bioware, they can release supplements for their AGE system (and they have). AGE campaigns and supplements could be released and given shelf-space beside DA with a "By the maker of Dragon Age RPG" sticker or some such. The issue is that lack of publisher content will lead to lack of interest which will lead to a vicious downward spiral.

Look at the timing, too. Gencon was a couple of weeks ago, DA Set 2 won a silver ennie, and where's the interest? The forums are virtually completely dead; Jekias' site hasn't been updated in over a year; the Oracle is almost entirely AGE conversions; and that's it.

Overall, I like the game, I like the system, I like the setting. However, IMO, the more successful systems get continuous updates and support and do not rely only on GM creativity.

[Loswaith]

Well its rather hard to say what new mechanics will be added in set three that arent finished. Some could very well be due to what the fans have asked about (the mass battle ones for example), making it difficuilt to have had them finished before they knew fans wanted them.

As to the issues of higher level stats, personally I never came across the issue, like others have so cant realy comment on it being an problem, though I do like the "you mostly succeed" factor of the system, so that could be why.

Will apoligised for the delays, which I think is a bold move that you arent likely to see from many developers.

I just don't think harping on about what they are aware of is all that productive, and can make the fans seem ungrateful, when I'm fairly sure thats not the intent.

All in all DA could have done with a bit more front loading of the work (stuff done before the first set was released). Delays happen, so we have to wait.

As for the AGE stand alone they likely want to make sure they have everything to release in one package, as the staged release of DA didnt work so well.
Currently AGE is tied to DA so without a stand alone core for AGE it will end up needing to have some refrence or useablity with DA, so there is only so much you can publish before releasing core rules (and likely a setting with it).

Warhammer Fantasy Role-playing actually breaks the point of needing updates to be 'successful' (though our idea of successful could be different too) as there was many years nothing was published for it, enough so that it got picked up again after it could have been considered "long dead". Earthdawn had a similar story, though it wasn't anywhere as long a break as for warhammer.

So systems can be 'successful' if they have solid cores and fan interest.

[shonuff]

WAs to the issues of higher level stats, personally I never came across the issue, like others have so cant realy comment on it being an problem, though I do like the "you mostly succeed" factor of the system, so that could be why.

I would agree with you, except that it was "fixed" in Set 2, albeit not compensating for good rolling and background bonuses. And personally, I think that not being able to improve abilities/stats for multiple levels is a flaw in the system.

So systems can be 'successful' if they have solid cores and fan interest.

True. However, if you look at both of the examples you mentioned, there are dozens of sourcebooks and guides to provide content. Using the oh-so-great wikipedia, Warhammer 1st Edition had 18 items published in 4 years. Earthdawn 1st Edition had about 30 items in 3 years. Dragon Age has 4 in a little over 2 years (IIRC).

I just don't think harping on about what they are aware of is all that productive, and can make the fans seem ungrateful, when I'm fairly sure thats not the intent.

Are they aware? Then why aren't they doing anything about it? And no, I don't mean "Releasing Set 3". Previews, tips, polls, etc., etc., etc.

[Zapp]

First off, I don't think Will have read this thread since GenCon yet, so I am hesitant to continue the discussion...

Will apoligised for the delays, which I think is a bold move that you arent likely to see from many developers.

I just don't think harping on about what they are aware of is all that productive, and can make the fans seem ungrateful, when I'm fairly sure thats not the intent.

That said, I would like it to be clear that the mismatch between what (at least) I would have expected from the initial "we at GR got the DA license!" proclamation and what GR/Bioware have actually produced is not simply a matter of a delay here, a canceled product there.

The truth is that GR is producing Dragon Age product with much less ambition that such a high-profile property deserves. And, sadly, that is consistent with prior effors from the company.

The fault does not lie with Hindmarch. He is, after all, just one guy, when you would have thought a property like Dragon Age (or Game of Thrones, for that matter) would justify a whole production team; with a constant barrage of print products, news snippets, free goodies, and pay DLCs. As some of you have said, you need to work hard at getting to the point where the average gamer truly accepts the notion that Dragon Age is a premiere fantasy rpg property. It doesn't matter if Will never broke a deadline in his life, he cannot alone be expected to carry a game line with the clout of something like Dragon Age, not even after its lustre was slightly tarnished by the quick rush-job that was DA2.

The effort made by Green Ronin, simply put, is nowhere close to what you'd expect. Quite the opposite: Dragon Age comes across as a small, obscure, flawed, game well into its sunset period. There is noone else to blame for this but Green Ronin; they simply haven't shown much if any interest in doing more with their license than selling a few quick copies of the introductory box really.

Not that there's any fault with this. If this was clearly communicated. However, it does clash, and violently so, with the expectations given. This might be a misinterpretation on my part, but it still is an issue I would like GR to address.

As regards the interaction GR vs Bioware I can't say I'm much interested in speculation. It doesn't matter if Bioware is holding things up or if they are without fault - it's the end result that counts; and the track record here is simple:

Too little, too late.



Zapp

PS. Again, Will haven't yet read my PM (at least I believe so; it's still in my Outbox as opposed to my Sentbox), so I think we need to wait awhile longer for any response. DS.

[MacGrein]

Did you guys noticed that BioWare's announcement?

Dragon Age 3 is coming, called Inquisition.

Does that should give us more joy on our P&P RPG?

[Scott McFarland]

Did you guys noticed that BioWare's announcement?

Dragon Age 3 is coming, called Inquisition.

Does that should give us more joy on our P&P RPG?

I've no idea. If they're a lot more certain of themselves at Bioware then it might make the sign-off of content for Set 3 easier. But the problem could be at the GR end, what with the entire line having only one writer...

[kronovan]

The big news out of Bioware yesterday was that the founding Execs, Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk, have retired from the company. Personally I really admired those 2 and don't expect more than mediocre products to come out of Biowares' studios now. I definitely won't be holding my breath for DA3. I give Bioware about 5 years -10 max- before its deep sixed by EA. I wish I could be more positive, but I've witnessed this pattern with 2nd party studios and the EA combine for too long.

It'll be interesting to see if the changes at Bioware have any impact on the release of DAGE Boxset 3.

[FSchuttee]

I guess that really doesn't surprise me though I think EA will probably dump Bioware a lot sooner than 5 years. Also, wouldn't be the first time EA ticked me off (like when they monopolized the sports games). Plus they also had some labor troubles a while back too, running an almost "sweatshop"-like production area. Real nice company they have, kind of like Star Wars evil Empire. When EA goes, I won't miss'em.

[Admiral Yacob]

2. I'm preparing a bunch of new DLC for the back half of the year, including new Faces of Thedas, new AGE Explorations, new Battle & Loot kits, and some new ways to explore lore and details of Thedas. What do you want to see more of? Less of? I've got a fair amount of material already in the pipeline, so I can't turn on a dime (obviously), but I'd like to aim some DLC right where you want it.

3. When I get back from Gen Con, I'll be going back through these forums to address some recent threads and see if I can be of use to y'all in here. If you've got a thread that you think needs attention, put a new post in it so it's on the front page next week when I get back?

Cheers,
Will

Hello,
It's been a while since I posted and I gotta make a post to Will. I know you are probably very busy with prep work but I was hoping we might be able to see some of the posts you mentioned back in the first post in this thread. I don't want to come across as naggy or anything but an update of what is potentially coming down the pipeline soon, maybe some thoughts on our requests would be greatly appreciated.

For me personally it's been hard to keep my group interested in DA lately as we've been on hiatus until Set 2's adventure set comes out. I'm doing what I can to keep interest up, making some stories of events happening during the downtimes and such, but if I even could know just where it falls in the planned order of releases, that would be a great help.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not looking for much as I know you are busy and I know you cannot commit to any specific time frames but a basic, "We'd like to finish x then look at y then z" kind of post would go a long way towards helping myself at a minimum (and I hope I'm not alone) with feeling like we know what's coming down the pipe and can begin anticipating.

Overall, I've loved the quality of work so far and cannot wait to see more material released. I hope you are willing to take some time to address this, at least to some degree, even if it's just to say "Sorry, I cannot say anything yet but we will tell you as soon as we can". Thanks, Will.

~Admiral Yacob

[Zapp]

3. When I get back from Gen Con, I'll be going back through these forums to address some recent threads and see if I can be of use to y'all in here. If you've got a thread that you think needs attention, put a new post in it so it's on the front page next week when I get back?

Just FYI, it has been two and a half months since Hindmarch last logged in to the forums, much less responded to any of this thread's replies.

Call it a bump if you will. Personally I'm not holding my breath.

[shonuff]

3. When I get back from Gen Con, I'll be going back through these forums to address some recent threads and see if I can be of use to y'all in here. If you've got a thread that you think needs attention, put a new post in it so it's on the front page next week when I get back?

Just FYI, it has been two and a half months since Hindmarch last logged in to the forums, much less responded to any of this thread's replies.

Call it a bump if you will. Personally I'm not holding my breath.

I can understand convention season is busy, but at the same time, if you give yourself a deadline, you should prolly try and keep it.

[Hindmarch]

Hi again,

Will Hindmarch here again, writing with an update and with my deep apologies.

First, the apologies. You're all quite right to be frustrated and annoyed. I'm sorry that these forums—that you!—haven't been given the attention and appreciation you're due. To be clear, this is 100% my fault and not the fault of anyone else involved with the Dragon Age game. Green Ronin is taking concrete steps to improve your experiences as Dragon Age fans; you'll read more about that soon. The first step, though, is for me to apologize. I really am sorry I've let you down. You're a great, enthusiastic, and imaginative lot who bring terrific energy to the game and its play. That should be appreciated with something better than my cowardly absence from these forums.

Second, the update: Set 3 files are in editing and approvals and re-development (in response to editing and approvals) even now. Things continue to move forward with new DLC for Dragon Age and the Adventure Game Engine. DLC releases will resume in the new year, although perhaps sporadically as the schedule for those gets ironed out.

Please know that when it comes to the future of the Dragon Age line, Green Ronin wants you to be happy with the game and with your experiences playing it. Chris Pramas created a wonderful game, running on a terrific engine, and the game and engine are approaching an exciting year of new talent and new products. Please stay tuned to the forums and the Ronin Roundtables — I think you'll be glad you did.

Thanks to all of you who have written in, who have participated in the beta, and who have been playing the game.

Best regards,
Will

[Bardwulf]

You bit off more than you could chew making set 3 and 4 be conjoined. That's the most complex 10 levels of the game to handle in one go. I wish to the Maker they had been separate releases. That way we would have got a tier 4 module too and content sooner (as smaller).

That's the last I'll say on the matter now. I'll carry on converting other system's adventures into my DA campaign and see what happens.

[shonuff]

You bit off more than you could chew making set 3 and 4 be conjoined. That's the most complex 10 levels of the game to handle in one go. I wish to the Maker they had been separate releases. That way we would have got a tier 4 module too and content sooner (as smaller).

That's the last I'll say on the matter now. I'll carry on converting other system's adventures into my DA campaign and see what happens.

Actually, I think it makes the most sense that 11-15 is grouped with 16-20. 16-20 has very little new content. Specializations begin at levels 6 and 14, spells can be taken at any level as long as the prereqs are met.

And honestly, the content should have been mostly created before the 1st set was published, which could have prevented some of the inconsistencies and balance issues that popped up in Set 2.

[Dragon Son]

Actually, I think it makes the most sense that 11-15 is grouped with 16-20. 16-20 has very little new content. Specializations begin at levels 6 and 14, spells can be taken at any level as long as the prereqs are met.

And honestly, the content should have been mostly created before the 1st set was published, which could have prevented some of the inconsistencies and balance issues that popped up in Set 2.

Yep that's also how I see it.

[MacGrein]

Yep, but I even think the system should go only up to 10th level... So each level would be more important for the character.

[Dragon Son]

Yep, but I even think the system should go only up to 10th level... So each level would be more important for the character.

You can make every level important with 20 levels as well, the thing is that unlike other level-based games, in Dragon Age higher levels don't necessarily show a stronger character, they represent a more competent character in a broad sense, that's mainly due to how the ability advancements are working, I much prefer the approach that Dragon Age is taking on that matter compared to DnD to be honest. I also find that the benefits per level in Dragon Age are ok, not too much, not too little. I would like to see some more class specific stuff, but Talents serve that role as well.