Dwarves don't wear plate....

[Hellebore]

Isn´t this a bigger problem, not speaking balance-wise but realism? Say you have the Dex-focused character with a starting Dex of 4 who keeps pumping up Dex as he levels. At level 20 he could be at 10-12 in Dex (or 15 if you went wild and had 5 Dex at start) and thus have a movement roughly twice that of a level 1 character. I could see it would make more sense to have the base speed somewhat higher and then add (Dex/2) instead.

Sure. There are many ways to balance the system. So long as everything scales at the same rate or near the same rate. The above example would also produce someone with ~25 Defence as well, virtually impossible to hit. They would however only have very low Con and Str.

It also assumes that characters can keep adding to stats infinitely. Perhaps they'll cap stats? Someone on the forum did some house rules for higher levels and capped stats at max 7 for PCs. That would mean that a character's speed couldn't exceed 17.

With unlimited stacking you'd get other unrealistic results, like humans with a Strength greater than an Ogre, or so much Con they can take 10 ballistas to the chest without breaking a sweat...

I don't know what GR are going to do, perhaps we'll find out in the beta rules. I'd be tempted to cap stats out at a certain point as it avoids certain silliness like you've pointed out.

Hellebore

[Banesfinger]

IMO, I agree that most of the character creation seems balanced, except for the starting speeds (nothing seems to off-set the advantages elves/humans get over dwarves here).

Until set-2 is released, I would probably add this to the Armor Training talent:

"You can now use your score in Constitution (Stamina) to reduce the armor's penalty to your Dex (and thus Speed). The penalty can never be reduced to less than 0. Those without this talent take the Armor's penalty to Dexterity (and thus to Speed)."

For example, a person with the Armor Training Talent, a Con +1 and the Stamina (+2) focus, would reduce all armor dex/speed penalties by 3. So everything up to Heavy Mail would not affect his speed, and Heavy plate would be -2 speed.

You'll note that Surface Dwarfs can choose the Constitution (Stamina) talent right at character generation...

[Balgin Stondraeg]

(And add the Genlock magic resistance thing to dwarves, since that seems to have been forgotten.)

That may be a Surface Dwarf/Deep Dwarf thing. We really need a Deep Dwarf background to chose from. I realise they wouldn't go out adventuring much, except in the deep roads, but the surface dwarfs do seem a little hard done by at times.

[Lyger]

Hey, Machpants, have you thought about simply dropping the speed penalty for armor? DA characters don't move that fast in combat - an unarmored character who takes a Move action every action (two a turn) with a Dex of 1 is moving at about 3 mph - which has been considered standard marching pace since Rome was still around. Since the best a character can manage is one Run and one Move in a turn, for a grand total of 3x their Speed in yards, their top speed is really pretty slow. Since managing the hundred yard dash in a pokey twenty seconds (moving 75 yards in a fifteen second turn or a bit better than 10 mph) would require a Speed of 25 with those rules, you can say that the book isn't attempting to cover anything like a flat-out sprint (which should be about twice that over short distances).

In other words, since we not talking about moving much faster than a brisk walk, you could get away with dispensing with the speed penalty completely without breaking "reality."

[Alabaster]

Hey a surface dwarf gets an extra language (Dwarven) so it's kind of like trading 2 speed for a novice talent level 2 speed equals 1 square on a battle map. That seems like a fair price to pay for being able to speak another language.

I personally like the random table a surface dwarf gets more than a ferelden freeman, but thats just me......

[Hellebore]

Unfortunately of the 3 classes available, dwarves can't take one. Warriors and Rogues with 2 pts less movement are warriors and rogues that are 1 turn away from hitting the enemy (as 2 yards is adjacent in the game). If they become ranged types then other races can do the same thing but have the option of getting into melee.

If there was some kind of merchant class then an extra language might be more valuable.

In the end with the game as is, dwarves are just inferior fereldan freemen; slower and incapable of choosing 1/3rd of the available classes. So they can't choose one class and are inferior at the other two. Apart from aesthetics, they present a distinctly uninteresting choice. Even at Movement 10 they are still a fereldan freeman that can't become a mage.

While we're at it, the city elf is described as retaining their race's natural agility but the Dalish only get +1 WP at creation. Aparently they lost their natural agility whilst their sedentary cousins retained theirs...

Perhaps if they stuck with the computer game's racial benefits:

Racial benefits of elves: +2 Willpower, +2 magic
Racial benefits of dwarves: +1 strength, +1 dexterity, +2 constitution, 10% chance to resist hostile magic
Racial benefits of Humans: +1 strength, +1 dexterity, +1 magic, +1 cunning

Starting stats from the game:

Race Class Human Warrior
Strength 15
Dexterity 14
Willpower 10
Magic 11
Cunning 11
Constitution 13

Race Class Human Rogue
Strength 11
Dexterity 15
Willpower 12
Magic 11
Cunning 15
Constitution 10

Race Class Human Mage
Strength 11
Dexterity 11
Willpower 14
Magic 16
Cunning 12
Constitution 10

Race Class Elf Warrior
Strength 14
Dexterity 13
Willpower 12
Magic 12
Cunning 10
Constitution 13

Race Class Elf Rogue
Strength 10
Dexterity 14
Willpower 14
Magic 12
Cunning 14
Constitution 10

Race Class Elf Mage
Strength 10
Dexterity 10
Willpower 16
Magic 17
Cunning 11
Constitution 10

Race Class Dwarf Warrior
Strength 15
Dexterity 14
Willpower 10
Magic 10
Cunning 10
Constitution 15

Race Class Dwarf Rogue
Strength 11
Dexterity 15
Willpower 12
Magic 10
Cunning 14
Constitution 12


We might see a more even spread. The stats are a little high for starting characters, but if you assume that 10 = 0 in a stat, then it makes sense.

Hellebore

[Lyger]

Exact statistical model balance is elusive in roleplaying games, and, in my not particularly humble opinion, overrated. I don't think that it's worthwhile to expect that a rules set is going to successfully engage in the sort of aggressive "equality" that boiling everything down to pluses and minuses creates, unless you're talking about a really detailed point-based system. (And even those tend to break easily.)

Machpants' original point is that the movement and armor encumbrance rules are broken as written, because they make Dwarf tanks unacceptably slow. If a player treats Dexterity as a "dump stat" they could conceivably wind up with a Speed of 1 in Heavy Plate, thus requiring more than eight minutes to "run" the length of a football field, excluding the end zones. Now, whether or not you perceive this as actually broken likely really depends on how you expect to play the game. If combats are all about everyone toeing the line and hammering away at each other and "race conditions" are rare or non-existent, the fact that a heavy plate-armored Dwarf only manages perhaps one mile per hour at a walk likely won't matter.

Now, if you're up against opposition that prefers to stand off and make ranged attacks, you've got a problem. But you've got that problem anyway if you're dealing with someone who is faster than your character, can attack from father away than about one and half times your character's Speed and has plenty of room to maneuver. (An armored character on a blank battlemat is screwed...) The Reload and Ready actions that a ranged combatant will need to take mitigate against this somewhat, but if a slower character can't switch match the opposition in ranged attacks, they're pretty much going to be mulched.

Its the same thing if speed of of the essence. If an un- or lightly-armored character is going to have the run for their lives to make it, the more heavily armored characters are likely toast, unless they've really been buffing their Dexterity.

Dwarf characters simply have these problems in a wider range of circumstances.

Whether or not Dwarfs are shafted by not being able to be Mages is a different issue and depends on your opinion of the overall advantage to being a Mage.

[Hellebore]

Well the game is meant to be newbie friendly and I don't think most newbies think about deliberate inequality between character types. The game doesn't tell prospective players that being a dwarfen warrior, or rogue is worse than being a human one. So when they create their dwarf (perhaps in imitation of the computer game) they will discover that the human warrior in the group is better at being a warrior than they are. If they're computer gamers then they'll be a little confused as to why their RPG dwarf is worse than an RPG human when in the computer game it wasn't.

It's fine if you go in expecting it, as it's a conscious decision. You've chosen to play a mechanically inferior character (because even if you stack Dex to make up for the deficit, you won't be as good in Str or Con as a human or elf that didn't need to do that) and are willing to live with the consequences.

Having played with newbies before in different systems, if a noticeable deficiency shows up they'll want to know why Bob can do something they can't and if they can't is there something else they can do better to make up for it.

So I don't spoil the enjoyment of a newbie I'd just let them play a Spd10 dwarf so they're on even footing with other characters.

EDIT: I think if they gave characters 2-3 starting attribute points based on race it would be easier to differentiate between them rather than the single 1 we get now (which is why Fereldan freemen are mechanically just faster dwarves).


Hellebore

[steveman]

In the game I played in, of the 6 people total, only I and the GM were not newbies. None of the 4 newbies were bothered by dwarven speed issues. You seem to believe that your single instance is the cosmic truth. It is not. Its fine that you want to share your houserule, but it also seems you are judging and borderline berating people for not being in line. That makes me sad.

[Hellebore]

In the game I played in, of the 6 people total, only I and the GM were not newbies. None of the 4 newbies were bothered by dwarven speed issues. You seem to believe that your single instance is the cosmic truth. It is not. Its fine that you want to share your houserule, but it also seems you are judging and borderline berating people for not being in line. That makes me sad.

I'm not claiming that anecdotal evidence is the truth. I'm simply stating that the truth is they are inferior and this can and will have an impact on the game.

That you and others keep making excuses to ignore a verifiable fact is simply apologising. It is this way. It could be better. The methods it could be better are many and varied. I've given several different ones. Others have given theirs.

But to pretend there isn't anything wrong with it is just false.

This thread was started by someone specifically because this issue is affecting their game. Coming in and trying to apologise away the issue does not answer the original poster's question or help him solve his game group's problem. I and others have been providing different ideas for how this problem could be solved. Just saying 'get over it' does not do that.

Hellebore

[Lyger]

I'm not claiming that anecdotal evidence is the truth. I'm simply stating that the truth is they are inferior and this can and will have an impact on the game.

That you and others keep making excuses to ignore a verifiable fact is simply apologising. It is this way. It could be better. The methods it could be better are many and varied. I've given several different ones. Others have given theirs.

But to pretend there isn't anything wrong with it is just false.

This thread was started by someone specifically because this issue is affecting their game. Coming in and trying to apologise away the issue does not answer the original poster's question or help him solve his game group's problem. I and others have been providing different ideas for how this problem could be solved. Just saying 'get over it' does not do that.

Hellebore

Calm down a bit, H. Look, if you feel that you need to point-balance the PC races for your players to want to bother with Dwarfs, go ahead. Don't let us stop you. We're just random people on the interwebs. And I'm sure that Machpants can decide which of our suggestions, if any, he wants to go with.

I think steveman could have been a bit gentler in pointing out that you appear to be conflating "Newbie" and "Munchkin/Power-Gamer," but I don't think his point was to attack you, or your solution to the problem you perceive.

[Loswaith]

Unfortunately of the 3 classes available, dwarves can't take one. Warriors and Rogues with 2 pts less movement are warriors and rogues that are 1 turn away from hitting the enemy (as 2 yards is adjacent in the game). If they become ranged types then other races can do the same thing but have the option of getting into melee.

If there was some kind of merchant class then an extra language might be more valuable.

In the end with the game as is, dwarves are just inferior fereldan freemen; slower and incapable of choosing 1/3rd of the available classes. So they can't choose one class and are inferior at the other two. Apart from aesthetics, they present a distinctly uninteresting choice. Even at Movement 10 they are still a fereldan freeman that can't become a mage.
...

Technically Fereldan Freeman cant be mages either, you are either of a mage background or a freeldan freeman background, Dwarves just arent available as a racial selection for a mage just as Avvars arent.
That said we can assume though all humans for the current set are implied to be Fereldans.

It is a pity though that there isnt a bit more difference, mechanically between Surface Dwarves and Fereldan Freeman, though I guess thats to the nature of the races only inherantly having a single stat bonus.

[kimsmarkin]

Dwarves do not wear armor. Mischief is complete to do so while browsing around the tunnels and fighting in tight spaces a short sword and a heavy mail that is much more effective a weapon with two hands and rigid metal plates.

[Machpants]

We have already had this argument, and I am talking of surface dwarves... who spend their time above ground, not under it. Add to it that almost all imagery of dwarves shows them armoured to the max.

And tunnel fluff still doesn't make it a balanced choice.

[steveman]

Why is perfect balance an issue worth arguing over?

[Machpants]

If by argument you mean discussion (like I did), anything is worth a good discussion. I personally think the dwarves speed is prohibitive for the average dwarf, when combined with the armour reduction of speed. The heavily armoured dwarf is a fantasy (and DA) standard and the rules don't support that as well as other things. My guys are experienced RPGers, 25-30 years each, so these sort of things stand out.

I don't like it so I opened the floor to see what other people think, some don't care about balance... which is cool, and some have given me some good ideas on fixing what I see as a problem.

This is what a forum is all about, discussion.

[Ryngard]

I disagree that there is a problem with their reduced speed. Either they compensate for it via increasing their DEX, wear lighter armor, or I dunno... use tactics?

Dwarves living in the Deep Roads don't NEED to move far. They are in tunnels and usually they are there to fight and kill without the thought of retreat. They need heavy armor that absorbs damage while they hack and kill their enemies.

We prefer mobility because the terrain we fight in supports it. Elves even more so, using trees and natural terrain to their advantage while peppering enemies with arrows from a distance.

Dwarves on the other hand prefer straight up combat. They shouldn't NEED to move very far and if they do they have options. Plus, having a crossbow never hurts.

Surface dwarves may now are becoming more use to open areas, but they still have thousands of years of underground living evolution that has affected their bodies.

So Surface dwarves should take their natural limitations in mind when choosing armor. MAYBE they need to do more cardio (raise their DEX) to compensate?

Just because you choose to min/max your character, doesn't mean it is broken rules set.

[NickMiddleton]

As a recent fan of both the DA computer game AND the DA RPG, a couple of thoughts:

Dwarven armor is too small to fit humans or elves. It gives the same armor rating but all armor penalties are reduced by two. It also costs at least twice what human / elven sized armor does anywhere but Orzammar / Kal-Sharok (and inside Orzammar, human and elven armor is more expensive, as they ship most of the stock out as trade goods).

Armor training additionally allows a character to reduce the armor penalty of armor they are trained with by their Constitution, or Constitution (Stamina) if they have it (as Banefinger suggested).

To explain my perspective: I steel weapon reenacted for ten years (Wars of the roses era mainly, with some forays in to the Tudors) and I have both practical experience and some academic knowledge of late medieval arms and armor. In general, mobility is vital in combats with these sorts of weapons and armor. And all the evidence I saw and my own experience with accurate reproduction weapons and armor was that even plate armor had little direct impact on my speed or mobility (provided it fitted correctly and was put on properly) - but I tired MUCH more quickly in heavy armor (mainly due to heat build up).

Add that real world experience / information to the fact that everyone's mental image of a Dwarven warrior will be some hairy, short-arsed attitude problem with LOTS of armor and a bloody great axe (or hammer), and clearly the game does need to accommodate Dwarven Warriors in heavy armor some how... The above two fixes seem to me to address the problem whilst also remaining simple and straight forward as befits the DA approach - but I have yet to try them out in anger...

Cheers,

NDM

[Lyger]

Oh. NOW I see who Hellebore was talking about. Sorry, man. My Bad.

[crosswiredmind]

I have been playing DA:O recently and outside of the Legion I see very few dwarves in plate. Not sure why dwarves should get a PnP benefit that isn't reflected in the digital version of the game. Just my personal opinion.

[baronzaltor]

when comparing to the other races, i think its also worth noting that unlike elves ferelden law considers dwarves "people". thus dwarves have MASSIVE social advantages on an elf.

elves have -no- rights. killing an elf isnt murder. it is illegal and punishable by death for someone to take arms in defense of a city elf against a ferelden. (thats in one of the printed adventures even.) heck, there are nobles in denerim who are constantly looking for an excuse to purge the alienge there just to be rid of them.

if a random merchant, spoiled nobles son, or just a guard decides a city elf looked at him funny, hes allowed to kill him on the spot... and if any of the party steps in to defend him they are legally in the wrong. if that elf defends himself and kills said merchant/noble/guard he is now a murderer regardless of circumstance. a dwarf would have a chance to defend himself and prove his innocence...an elf is executed.

elves also arent allowed to carry weapons in cities, anyone familiar with the pc game probably remembers the signs all over the alienage that read "elves seen carrying weapons will be killed with them" (paraphrased).

if an elf is anything but a servant to the party, he can be a perpetual penalty to all their social rolls. being an elf means you should be prepared to face things like being made to pay more for goods, recieve less pay than others, sleep in stables, and generally be a social pariah...and your friends will need to expect some of the same if they spend too much time sympathizing with your ilk. elves have to work hard just to get the common decencies from people that humans and dwarves enjoy as standard courtesy.

so i dont think dwarves are going to feel "inferior" to any elves in a social or political adventure or campaign, or even when he cant be robbed in the streets without consequence.

dales arent any better off either... to the general city folk of ferelden, a dale is just a city elf who doesnt know his place. dales are often treated as savages and heathens.
they are better off just pulling a hood over their ears and letting others do the talking for them on a trip through denerim

so to me, theres at least enough social hinderance for elves that the extra movment isnt "unbalanced" or some sort of free perk. hes going to need that extra speed when hes running from guards under accusation of being a "theiving knife ear".

that does however bring up dwaves vs freemen, socially they are generally the same but fereldens still move more...i think it would have the proper ammount of "this-for-that" if dwarves had the innate magic resistance like they are supposed to. (which does still remain with surface dwarves, as far as ive been able to find in reading up on it anway.) after all id gladly knock off 2 yards of moment for the ability to better resist death sentance spells like walking bomb, winters grasp, mind blast.

[Machpants]

Thans for all the info guys. especially about the world itself. It is really hard to get this sort of stuff if you haven't played the PC game... which I haven't

I will take on board the feel of the world, I think I will still stick with my house rule for balance (speed 9/10/11 and health +2/0/-2)... which is not min maxing Ryngard just balance (not my character either, I am DM)

But the world info is invaluable for me, I really wish there was a campaign guide ....

Especial thanks for the dwarf vs elf advantages in society, but that will be balanced by the fact that an elf will get much more respect/help/info from the lower and shadier levels of society than a dwarf/human I guess.

I hope the BETA is out before next wednesday as that is our first game night (this wed cancelled ) and it has more options for characters for us to start with.

[Ferai]

I'm not 100% on either, but I think that baronzaltor is mistaken, or at least (citation needed).

Elven slavery in Thedas is officially illegal everywhere but the Tivinter Emperium, with the alienages (aka ghettos) being the response to free elves. (Val Royaux's alienage is mentioned in a codex entry).

Looking at The History of Elves on Bioware's site, there is mention of

We were allowed to live among the humans as second class citizens and worship their Maker

Which still says to me they're free, but oppressed much in the same way blacks were oppressed after they were freed from slavery.

Also, from this Alienage Culture codex entry, it also states

But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break, and they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town.

Which means the elves have freedom of movement, can own property and the like. I would say that elves have rights as much as everyone else, but much like the blacks after emancipation, either find these rights hard to exert or sometimes just ignored.

If you haven't played the game, I'd suggest at least reading the two books (The Calling and The Stolen Throne both by the main writer of the game, David Gaider) as they will help show the differences between other worlds and The DA Setting (TheDAS!).

[Machpants]

Off to Amazon, cheers

EDIT: Pity they don't offer them Kindle

bookdepository.com it is instead

[kobbold]

Off to Amazon, cheers

EDIT: Pity they don't offer them Kindle

bookdepository.com it is instead

You are... AWFULL (well, that's what my bank account thinks anyway)!

I checked, ordered the book, and completely lost control when I saw the Dragon Age: Prima Official Game Guide, Origins Collector's Edition!

God I'm a weak man...