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But the world info is invaluable for me, I really wish there was a campaign guide
I've refined this to an Encumbrance system with the same effect. You add 2+Con+Str to figure out a creature's Encumbrance Capacity and if the amount of Enc is higher than this they suffer penalties.
As you say, D&D dwarves only move 20 ft, but suffer no movement penalties due to armour or encumbrance. I'd just roll with that idea.
JRHigley wrote:Not to bring things too far back to the original post, but it seems like we've gotten a couple of good suggestions regarding how to address this (for the sake of argument "perceived") deficiency.
The H-man offered what I thought was a well-articulated, if complicated solution (for a beginner RPG):I've refined this to an Encumbrance system with the same effect. You add 2+Con+Str to figure out a creature's Encumbrance Capacity and if the amount of Enc is higher than this they suffer penalties.
We also have the very simple, if not elegant, d20 solution from Ferai:As you say, D&D dwarves only move 20 ft, but suffer no movement penalties due to armour or encumbrance. I'd just roll with that idea.
Which I guess in DA translates into a straight movement of 8 no matter what you're dwarf is wearing.
Has anyone actually played (er...playtested) either of these suggestions? What did you think?
And to add my two cents for your consideration: How about a Str offset to the penalty? "The movement penalty is reduced by a character's Strength score to a maximum of zero."
I just think that 2 + Con + Str seems like a REALLY big reduction--essentially resulting in no armor penalties at all. Right out of the gate anyone with a combined Str and Con of 3 suffers no penalty for wearing heavy plate.
I also don't think that Con is the appropriate attribute for speed reduction. For speed over great distances (I'm talking middle distance run and up), yes, Con might be appropriate. However, if I have to run down some scrawny archer (even at long crossbow range of 60 yards), I'll need sprint speed and that means strength.
Furthermore, with a straight Str reduction it will take you a (little) while to get there. Taking a first level warrior with a Str of 2 - it will take to level 6, pumping only Str at the even level-ups (IMO a more logical choice for a dwarf than pumping Dex to cut the speed penalty), to get that heavy plate penalty down to zero. Starting with a Str of 3 it will still take you until level 4 to get it down to zero.
I may not have articulated myself as well as I should have then.
In the Enc system, weapons and shields add enc as well.
Someone wearing fullplate, carrying a sword and medium shield would have (10 + 2 + 2) 14 Encumbrance.
Now, I'm aware that it does penalise people more at earlier stages of the game, but this was intentional. I feel that you get less out of it if you can equip fullplate at character creation. I think starting in leather and graduating to chain and finally plate over multiple levels is a better idea, you get a sense of increased capacity rather than being at the top to begin with.
Again this is just my opinion. I don't think that 1st level characters should really want to wear fullplate (unless they're willing to put up with -6 dex). However, this drops off as they level up.
JRHigley wrote:Ah! (A light-bulb goes on, though perhaps a dim one.)
Perhaps I missed it in your earlier post, but how do you establish (or how would you suggest that one find) the encumbrance value of a particular item?
A personal preference I happen to share.
To explain my perspective: I steel weapon reenacted for ten years (Wars of the roses era mainly, with some forays in to the Tudors) and I have both practical experience and some academic knowledge of late medieval arms and armor. In general, mobility is vital in combats with these sorts of weapons and armor. And all the evidence I saw and my own experience with accurate reproduction weapons and armor was that even plate armor had little direct impact on my speed or mobility (provided it fitted correctly and was put on properly) - but I tired MUCH more quickly in heavy armor (mainly due to heat build up).
Whifflepook wrote:Though both elves and dwarves are at a social disadvantage compared to humans in DARPG, the difference between their disadvantages is massive. Dwarves, after all, founded the Ferelden merchants' guild, and enjoy all of the social freedoms of a freeman, if mingled with a bit of simple fear of the new or different on the part of Fereldens. Elves, on the other hand, are lower class scum with no civil rights who could expect outright scorn from a Ferelden simply because of their race.
Hellebore wrote:But I'm sure having a better relationship with humans is worth getting a 1 yard charge range on a melee character...
But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break; they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.
— Sarethia, Alienage Elder
Eclypse wrote:You seem to miss the point that Elves don't run around in heavy armor. They are servants, or maybe poor people.
Eclypse wrote:It is, if at any point in time, you can be Lynched if you screw up. You seem to miss the point that Elves don't run around in heavy armor. They are servants, or maybe poor people.
Fereldans treat Elves as lower than their dogs, so yah, no Elf is going to be running around in a Ferelden city in Plate armor, not without some inquisition into who they are, or possibly reprisal or outright robbery of their equipment.
You're not understanding the point that in Fereldan culture, class means everything. Elf is poor class, under Freemen.
Just like any 'second class' citizen, they don't have equal rights to Freemen, and routinely have their rights repressed. It is legal to repress those rights in Ferelden, and illegal to stand up for an Elf's rights.
So yes, there is a massive penalty because one means you can run around freely, the other means Mages, City Guards, or the Kings Army tearing your head off for being 'out of line'.
So yah, if you want to be a functioning warrior, be a human or a dwarf, if you're hell bent on playing an Elf, get ready to have a good explanation, or be a fugitive.
Banesfinger wrote:Ninja'ed you on the "Adventurers" thing Hellebore.
And you are overplaying the treatment of city elves in order to try and justify their warriors getting a massive advantage over dwarves in the job they were created for this game: fighting. Loghain is brought down partly because he was complicit in the profiteering of slavery by selling elves to Tevinter. The Landsmeet shoots this down with vehemence. Elves may not in general be better off than humans in Fereldan, but their rights to freedom are protected as evinced explicitly in the computer game.
The computer game has elves treated better and worse than others. just as some humans are treated better and worse. Your own elf gets to be the hero of fereldan.
Now the set 2 even says how crafting rules are secondary as that's not what this game is about: it's about adventuring.
In adventuring it doesn't matter that you are playing an elf who is supposedly poor: a fereldan freeman couldn't affort fullplate either. That's what adventuring does, it gets you money you otherwise wouldn't have. That's why many people become adventurers, to get away from the poor life.
In adventuring being a good warrior if you are a warrior is also going to keep you alive. If you want to play a political intrigue game where it's set amongst the Fereldan elite and the elves are thus excluded because they don't come from rich families, then obviously there would be a difference.
Then there is also the fact that as I said, humans are distrusted by elves, especially the Dalish. So it's ok for the Elves to get a massive advantage in combat to compensate for their poor relationship with humans, but if you decide that your campaign is going to involve alot of Dalish Clans then the humans and dwarves just have to suck?
A dwarf can't put on stilts to negate his speed advantage, but a city elf only has to use very simple means to make them look human.
And as being a city elf has little relevance to adventuring in the Dragonbone Wastes, Korcari Wilds or in the Frostbacks, hiding your ears is pretty pointless most of the time anway.
Eclypse wrote:I'm not justifying their speed bonus. I'm saying that it's not as much of an advantage as you're making it because the world flavor doesn't have them running around in plate armor.
The events surrounding Loghain were very complex, and that was only one of the problems that brought him low. If it were the only evidence I'd concede the point there, but it was just a tack on so they could take him down.
Eclypse wrote:I only see this in reference to two elf characters, 1 your character, (who is a Grey Warden and is not seen as an elf anymore, but as a Warden or Mage if you go that route), and 2 Zevran, but he's Antivan and he even says he was treated like garbage most of his life until he was a Crow, well and even then.
Eclypse wrote:And why do these two have to be mutually exclusive? Just because you're an adventurer doesn't mean you get liberties to go hog wild in the world and do whatever you want. The game has flavour for a reason, and if you aren't using that flavor then why not just play D&D instead. The purpose of a Roleplaying game is to experience the world with your character, whether it be dungeon crawling, political intrigue, or a mix and match of all of those.
I'd like to also say, that adventurers aren't immune to biases, prejudice, etc. just because they're adventurers, and sometimes, it's better to have the world flavour there to make the DM's job easier, or to provide plot hooks, etc. I guess if you're coming at this from a purely numbers perspective with no emphasis what-so-ever on the roleplaying part, I can see why you have an issue.
Eclypse wrote:In a word, yes. While they may not be Tolkien elves to a T, they're based on that template. If they have an inherent racial bonus to speed, its their bonus. So ok, they're better at speed, but if you're a dwarf you're not going to get hit by spells soemtimes...fair trade to me. It's not like an Apostate Mage isn't going to just ream your party if you aren't ready for it either. I mean the disparity of magic to non magic in this game is pretty ridiculous too, but who's advocating for toning down mindblast, or fade shield...
Eclypse wrote:Some stuff in the world isn't fair. The thing is here, elves have a movement advantage on everyone, not just dwarves. And this is really only an issue with warriors wearing the highest protection armor they can get. My advice would be to say, don't min/max the character and make sure your Dwarf warrior starts with decent Dex, to help movement.
Hellebore wrote:And what happens if the Dwarf stacks his Dex? Dex is a Primary attribute for warriors. By level 6 he will have gained +3 Dex if he stacks it all there. The elves meanwhile can put it anywhere.
So what do we end up with? The dwarf now, at level SIX has a Speed of 6, whilst the elves STILL have Speed7/8 without putting ANY points in Dex. They could have put one point in Con (to equal the dwarf's starting Con bonus) and then gained +2 to Str.
So what's better?
A Speed 6 warrior with Con 1 and str0 or
A Speed 7/8 warrior with Con 1 and Str2?
Eclypse wrote:City Elf specifically possibly if you find a Dalish camp, they don't particularly like City Elves, or any humans you see, or Qunari. Like I said above, Dwarves may start out disadvantaged some, but putting high stats in their weak areas to shore them up doesn't make the disparity that bad in reality.
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