Dwarves don't wear plate....

[Machpants]

[Ferai]

But the world info is invaluable for me, I really wish there was a campaign guide

I was just reminded of this when kobbold below mentioned the Dragon Age: Prima Official Game Guide, Origins Collector's Edition -- this edition of the book has a section called 'A Traveller's Guide' that has a TON of information. Unfortunately, this book is either impossible to find now or people want a ridiculous amount of money for it.

Fortunately, you can find the electronic version at here.

I'm pretty sure this is the same guide that you can get from Steam too for the Dragon Age: Origins game, which DEFINITELY has the Traveller's Guide in it.

[JRHigley]

Not to bring things too far back to the original post, but it seems like we've gotten a couple of good suggestions regarding how to address this (for the sake of argument "perceived") deficiency.

The H-man offered what I thought was a well-articulated, if complicated solution (for a beginner RPG):

I've refined this to an Encumbrance system with the same effect. You add 2+Con+Str to figure out a creature's Encumbrance Capacity and if the amount of Enc is higher than this they suffer penalties.

We also have the very simple, if not elegant, d20 solution from Ferai:

As you say, D&D dwarves only move 20 ft, but suffer no movement penalties due to armour or encumbrance. I'd just roll with that idea.

Which I guess in DA translates into a straight movement of 8 no matter what you're dwarf is wearing.

Has anyone actually played (er...playtested) either of these suggestions? What did you think?

And to add my two cents for your consideration: How about a Str offset to the penalty? "The movement penalty is reduced by a character's Strength score to a maximum of zero."

I just think that 2 + Con + Str seems like a REALLY big reduction--essentially resulting in no armor penalties at all. Right out of the gate anyone with a combined Str and Con of 3 suffers no penalty for wearing heavy plate.

I also don't think that Con is the appropriate attribute for speed reduction. For speed over great distances (I'm talking middle distance run and up), yes, Con might be appropriate. However, if I have to run down some scrawny archer (even at long crossbow range of 60 yards), I'll need sprint speed and that means strength.

Furthermore, with a straight Str reduction it will take you a (little) while to get there. Taking a first level warrior with a Str of 2 - it will take to level 6, pumping only Str at the even level-ups (IMO a more logical choice for a dwarf than pumping Dex to cut the speed penalty), to get that heavy plate penalty down to zero. Starting with a Str of 3 it will still take you until level 4 to get it down to zero.

[Hellebore]

Not to bring things too far back to the original post, but it seems like we've gotten a couple of good suggestions regarding how to address this (for the sake of argument "perceived") deficiency.

The H-man offered what I thought was a well-articulated, if complicated solution (for a beginner RPG):

I've refined this to an Encumbrance system with the same effect. You add 2+Con+Str to figure out a creature's Encumbrance Capacity and if the amount of Enc is higher than this they suffer penalties.

We also have the very simple, if not elegant, d20 solution from Ferai:

As you say, D&D dwarves only move 20 ft, but suffer no movement penalties due to armour or encumbrance. I'd just roll with that idea.

Which I guess in DA translates into a straight movement of 8 no matter what you're dwarf is wearing.

Has anyone actually played (er...playtested) either of these suggestions? What did you think?

And to add my two cents for your consideration: How about a Str offset to the penalty? "The movement penalty is reduced by a character's Strength score to a maximum of zero."

I just think that 2 + Con + Str seems like a REALLY big reduction--essentially resulting in no armor penalties at all. Right out of the gate anyone with a combined Str and Con of 3 suffers no penalty for wearing heavy plate.

I also don't think that Con is the appropriate attribute for speed reduction. For speed over great distances (I'm talking middle distance run and up), yes, Con might be appropriate. However, if I have to run down some scrawny archer (even at long crossbow range of 60 yards), I'll need sprint speed and that means strength.

Furthermore, with a straight Str reduction it will take you a (little) while to get there. Taking a first level warrior with a Str of 2 - it will take to level 6, pumping only Str at the even level-ups (IMO a more logical choice for a dwarf than pumping Dex to cut the speed penalty), to get that heavy plate penalty down to zero. Starting with a Str of 3 it will still take you until level 4 to get it down to zero.

I may not have articulated myself as well as I should have then.

In the Enc system, weapons and shields add enc as well.

Someone wearing fullplate, carrying a sword and medium shield would have (10 + 2 + 2) 14 Encumbrance.

Someone with Str and Con 2 would have 6 EC, giving them a -8(!) to Dex (or speed if you have the talent).

Now, I'm aware that it does penalise people more at earlier stages of the game, but this was intentional. I feel that you get less out of it if you can equip fullplate at character creation. I think starting in leather and graduating to chain and finally plate over multiple levels is a better idea, you get a sense of increased capacity rather than being at the top to begin with.

Again this is just my opinion. I don't think that 1st level characters should really want to wear fullplate (unless they're willing to put up with -6 dex). However, this drops off as they level up.

Importantly though, with the above system there are three separate stats that effectively reduce enc instead of one. If you go up in Str or Con, you can carry more. If you go up in Dex then you effectively negate 1 pt of Enc.

Thus any character can increase their EC when they increase any one of three stats, rather than at the moment where Dex is the only thing that affects armour penalty.

There are many ways to work with a problem and no right answers, just better and worse ones.

It really depends on what you want.

Using Str as a subtractor may not work on the current armour penalties because the highest is -5. Even a starting character will be able to wear plater with little modification. If you go with that then perhaps increasing the penalty would work as well. Say Heavy Plate is penalty -8, so a starting Str3 warrior is at the current -5 and it goes down as they level str up.


Hellebore

[JRHigley]

I may not have articulated myself as well as I should have then.

In the Enc system, weapons and shields add enc as well.

Ah! (A light-bulb goes on, though perhaps a dim one.)

Someone wearing fullplate, carrying a sword and medium shield would have (10 + 2 + 2) 14 Encumbrance.

Perhaps I missed it in your earlier post, but how do you establish (or how would you suggest that one find) the encumbrance value of a particular item?

Now, I'm aware that it does penalise people more at earlier stages of the game, but this was intentional. I feel that you get less out of it if you can equip fullplate at character creation. I think starting in leather and graduating to chain and finally plate over multiple levels is a better idea, you get a sense of increased capacity rather than being at the top to begin with.

Again this is just my opinion. I don't think that 1st level characters should really want to wear fullplate (unless they're willing to put up with -6 dex). However, this drops off as they level up.

A personal preference I happen to share.

[Hellebore]

Ah! (A light-bulb goes on, though perhaps a dim one.)

Perhaps I missed it in your earlier post, but how do you establish (or how would you suggest that one find) the encumbrance value of a particular item?

A personal preference I happen to share.

Well for simplicity I went with:

• AR = armour encumbrance. Thus fullplate is enc 10...
• Two-handed weapons are 3 Enc.
• Large one handed weapons are 2 Enc.
• Small one handed weapons are 1 Enc.
• Large ranged weapons are 2 Enc.
• Small ranged weapons are 1 Enc.
• Shield bonus = encumbrance. Heavy shield is thus 3 Enc (again making the divisions between shields actually create choice - slowed down or more heavily defended)

With all other carried objects I set nominal enc to 0, subject to GM discretion. So if they'd killed a deer and were carrying it back the GM might assign it an Enc of 5, slowing down the player even more and so on. I focused on combat equipment on purpose. Unless the players are carrying 100 gold, I wouldn't make money encumber them.

It was mostly to provide tactical options with equipment in combat, so people wouldn't always go for certain combinations (like skipping medium shields and going straight to heavy).

Anyway, that's what I did. I'm editing Esoterica Volume 1 to reflect these ideas and will be posting it up soon.

Hellebore

[Loswaith]

...
To explain my perspective: I steel weapon reenacted for ten years (Wars of the roses era mainly, with some forays in to the Tudors) and I have both practical experience and some academic knowledge of late medieval arms and armor. In general, mobility is vital in combats with these sorts of weapons and armor. And all the evidence I saw and my own experience with accurate reproduction weapons and armor was that even plate armor had little direct impact on my speed or mobility (provided it fitted correctly and was put on properly) - but I tired MUCH more quickly in heavy armor (mainly due to heat build up).
...

No offence, but I am sure if you ran 100 yards in plate armour as not in plate armour you can do it reasonably quicker without the armour, but this is beside the point.

In combat you don't tend to move great distances even though you do move alot. Dwarves arent getting penalities to their defence (assuming Armour training), so they can happily do all the combat movement (dodges, giving ground, follow ups and the like). Their limitation is the distance they can move compared to that of the other races in the same unit of time.

[Hellebore]

If you design your games around mitigating the penalty to the dwarf player on purpose, all you do is penalise the elf player for having higher movement, because it isn't a factor. Either way, one character is penalised. They get no advantage in compensation.



For Machpants I really think the simplest option is to just drop movement differences altogether and let starting stats dictate difference instead. If you don't want simple then that's cool, there are plenty of options (your idea on more health and lower move changes is fine too).

Hellebore

[Machpants]

The discussion is really interesting, but I haven't been changed from my last idea... just make the difference +/- 1 on speed (rather than 2) and balance it with a tiny change in Health +/-2

This still keeps the flavour of fast elves and slow dwarves, but not so much. Armour etc stays the same (also reinforces the tough dwarves and less tough elves flavour)

That said I like your encumbrance system and eagerly await the next esoterica instalment

[Phelan]

I can understand the rationale for slower dwarfs due to shorter legs and generally being not as tall as humans, but just what is the logic of the higher movement for elves compared to humans?

[steveman]

Tolkienist Tradition.

The elf of modern medieval fantasy is construct of JRR Tolkien, and in his stories the elves were far more fleet of foot. So most modern interpretations of it retain the fact. Of course this has a grounding in norse mythology that Tolkien drew his inspiration from, where in some tellings, the Alfar were able to outrun a horse and d so without leaving any tracks.

[Phelan]

So, no logic and only tradition, then

[steveman]

I know you're poking fun, but seriously what makes elves different than humans beyond cosmetics and culture, if not for their preternatural speed?

[Phelan]

Well, "not aging" is usually the case but not so in DAO or DARPG (any longer, I should add).

To lift the perspective:

In general it seems to me that all backgrounds have been treated equally, with the same amount of technical benefits. Exceptions are elves who have higher speed and dwarfs who are slower (and also magically resistant if not surface dwarfs). Nightvision seems not to apply for either dwarfs or elves, something that is usually the case for both races in most fantasy RPGs.

For my part, I don´t care too much about balance statwise. Socially both elves and dwarfs should be at a disadvantage compared to humans. Since the intent of the rules seem to be to make all equal statwise, I think they fail to reach the target in this aspect. If a GM really plays on the problems for a non-human in a mostly human setting, the choice of playing either dwarf or elf would both be the poorer choice of a background from a pure optimizing perspective. I wouldn´t mind if both dwarfs and elves had say better technical advantages to humans as long as you make sure to bring home the disadvantage of not being human.

On the elven speed, I see this as a problem that will only expand as PCs level up. Going somewhat after the template, I think someone playing an elf is more likely to emphasize Dex than say a dwarf or a human. As Dex goes up, so does speed, and in the end you may see ridiculously fast elves.

[Whifflepook]

Though both elves and dwarves are at a social disadvantage compared to humans in DARPG, the difference between their disadvantages is massive. Dwarves, after all, founded the Ferelden merchants' guild, and enjoy all of the social freedoms of a freeman, if mingled with a bit of simple fear of the new or different on the part of Fereldens. Elves, on the other hand, are lower class scum with no civil rights who could expect outright scorn from a Ferelden simply because of their race.

[Hellebore]

Though both elves and dwarves are at a social disadvantage compared to humans in DARPG, the difference between their disadvantages is massive. Dwarves, after all, founded the Ferelden merchants' guild, and enjoy all of the social freedoms of a freeman, if mingled with a bit of simple fear of the new or different on the part of Fereldens. Elves, on the other hand, are lower class scum with no civil rights who could expect outright scorn from a Ferelden simply because of their race.

Elves are free in Fereldan. Slavery is banned. They aren't shall we say the most affluent of people, but they certainly aren't civil rightless. And one could equally say that amongst the Dalish humans would be at a massive negative - which would have a big effect if the campaign was set around working with them.



Now if we are to look at the mechanics of the game, a Dwarf warrior has 4 yards less movement than an Elven warrior (5 yards if they are a city elf).

If they both have the same starting stats (0 in everything with their racial bonuses added) and are given identical equipment (fullplate) the dwarf is at Speed 3 whilst the elf is at Speed 7 or Speed 8 if they are a city elf.

What does this mean? The dwarf charges 1 yard, the elves 3/4 yards. The Dwarf RUNS 6 yards, the elves 14/16.

Two warriors who are presumably supposed to be doing the same job. Yet one moves 2.33/2.66x faster than the other. A city elf running in fullplate moves almost 3x faster than a dwarf in fullplate.

The warrior class doesn't distinguish between races, so someone trying to be an effective dwarven warrior will find themselves outclassed by an elf doing the same thing every time.

Seriously, a dwarf charges ONE yard. The elves either have a 300% or 400% increased charge range. Charge is a big advantage but is all but useless on a dwarf playing as a warrior. He isn't fast enough to protect anyone.

And what happens if the Dwarf stacks his Dex? Dex is a Primary attribute for warriors. By level 6 he will have gained +3 Dex if he stacks it all there. The elves meanwhile can put it anywhere.

So what do we end up with? The dwarf now, at level SIX has a Speed of 6, whilst the elves STILL have Speed7/8 without putting ANY points in Dex. They could have put one point in Con (to equal the dwarf's starting Con bonus) and then gained +2 to Str.

So what's better?

A Speed 6 warrior with Con 1 and str0 or
A Speed 7/8 warrior with Con 1 and Str2?

It amuses me that people still attempt to apologise this away when the disparity is massive. Starting dwarves at Speed 8 is almost as bad as giving them speed 10 but applying a -2 Dex penalty out of the gate.

Warriors can't do their job if their charge range is 1 yard. This isn't a case of a small advantage, the Dwarf has to put 4 points in dex just to equal the elf, whilst the elf is free to put them in the other places that make warriors good, Con and Str. They certainly don't need much extra speed.

And why? Because armour only affects Dexterity and mostly only Speed due to the armour training talent. It doesn't matter than dwarves are tougher or stronger (in set 2) - the armour could weigh 100kgs and the elf would still charge 4x further because he has a higher starting Speed.

Creating a 4pt speed gap between dwarves and elves means dwarves have to spend 4 pts of Dex to actually EQUAL the starting speed of an elf (or 5 if they are a city elf). And if they don't? Well the elf will probably have dispatched the enemy before the dwarf can wheeze his way there, or the enemy will just run rings around him.

But I'm sure having a better relationship with humans is worth getting a 1 yard charge range on a melee character...

Hellebore

[Eclypse]

But I'm sure having a better relationship with humans is worth getting a 1 yard charge range on a melee character...

Hellebore

It is, if at any point in time, you can be Lynched if you screw up. You seem to miss the point that Elves don't run around in heavy armor. They are servants, or maybe poor people.

Fereldans treat Elves as lower than their dogs, so yah, no Elf is going to be running around in a Ferelden city in Plate armor, not without some inquisition into who they are, or possibly reprisal or outright robbery of their equipment.

You're not understanding the point that in Fereldan culture, class means everything. Elf is poor class, under Freemen.

But don't be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don't have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break; they buy a house in the docks, or the outskirts of town. If they're lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers' field.

— Sarethia, Alienage Elder

Just like any 'second class' citizen, they don't have equal rights to Freemen, and routinely have their rights repressed. It is legal to repress those rights in Ferelden, and illegal to stand up for an Elf's rights.

So yes, there is a massive penalty because one means you can run around freely, the other means Mages, City Guards, or the Kings Army tearing your head off for being 'out of line'.

So yah, if you want to be a functioning warrior, be a human or a dwarf, if you're hell bent on playing an Elf, get ready to have a good explanation, or be a fugitive.

[Banesfinger]

You seem to miss the point that Elves don't run around in heavy armor. They are servants, or maybe poor people.

You are quite right Eclypse - and a good DM should/may enforce this. But I tend to think two things may clash with this ideal:

A) This is an entry level game. Most entry level DMs can enforce the written rules (since they can be specifically referenced), but enforcing an exact representation of a existing setting (computer) from flavour text and wiki's may be beyond the capabilities of most (even experienced) DMs.

B) Player Characters are first & foremost from the "adventurer" class. That is to say, they don't always follow all the rules. They will wear the best armour, carry the best weapons, and wield the powerful magic. They are not "everyday" people.

So, meta-game wise: players will buy the best "stuff" they can afford, unless there is some kind of rule against it. However - there IS a written rule they must follow as far as Race Speed is concerned...

[Hellebore]

It is, if at any point in time, you can be Lynched if you screw up. You seem to miss the point that Elves don't run around in heavy armor. They are servants, or maybe poor people.

Fereldans treat Elves as lower than their dogs, so yah, no Elf is going to be running around in a Ferelden city in Plate armor, not without some inquisition into who they are, or possibly reprisal or outright robbery of their equipment.

You're not understanding the point that in Fereldan culture, class means everything. Elf is poor class, under Freemen.

Just like any 'second class' citizen, they don't have equal rights to Freemen, and routinely have their rights repressed. It is legal to repress those rights in Ferelden, and illegal to stand up for an Elf's rights.

So yes, there is a massive penalty because one means you can run around freely, the other means Mages, City Guards, or the Kings Army tearing your head off for being 'out of line'.

So yah, if you want to be a functioning warrior, be a human or a dwarf, if you're hell bent on playing an Elf, get ready to have a good explanation, or be a fugitive.

And you are overplaying the treatment of city elves in order to try and justify their warriors getting a massive advantage over dwarves in the job they were created for this game: fighting. Loghain is brought down partly because he was complicit in the profiteering of slavery by selling elves to Tevinter. The Landsmeet shoots this down with vehemence. Elves may not in general be better off than humans in Fereldan, but their rights to freedom are protected as evinced explicitly in the computer game.

The computer game has elves treated better and worse than others. just as some humans are treated better and worse. Your own elf gets to be the hero of fereldan.

Now the set 2 even says how crafting rules are secondary as that's not what this game is about: it's about adventuring.

In adventuring it doesn't matter that you are playing an elf who is supposedly poor: a fereldan freeman couldn't affort fullplate either. That's what adventuring does, it gets you money you otherwise wouldn't have. That's why many people become adventurers, to get away from the poor life.

In adventuring being a good warrior if you are a warrior is also going to keep you alive. If you want to play a political intrigue game where it's set amongst the Fereldan elite and the elves are thus excluded because they don't come from rich families, then obviously there would be a difference.

However, as this game is explicitly designed as an adventuring game for newbies where they dungeon bash etc rather than re-creating the Madness of King Lear in all its thespianic glory, the grossly superior Speed of an elf puts them at a disproportionate advantage.

Then there is also the fact that as I said, humans are distrusted by elves, especially the Dalish. So it's ok for the Elves to get a massive advantage in combat to compensate for their poor relationship with humans, but if you decide that your campaign is going to involve alot of Dalish Clans then the humans and dwarves just have to suck?

Your argument only partially works if the adventuring happens exclusively around other Fereldan people where the distrust of the elves will actually have an ingame effect. In the circumstances where the PCs are adventuring, where there are no civilisations (the majority of the computer game does not take place in built up human areas where being an elf might pose a problem) then the elf is just flatout better.

Then of course there are the rather easy and logical ways an elf can go about their business without ever being spat on: grow long hair, wear a hood, headband, or just have your ears pruned. I mean seriously, elves don't exactly stick out in Dragon Age except for their ears. Only a Dalish would be too proud to disguise themselves (and they can't with the blood writing anyway). A city elf trying to get a good deal could easily wear a headband Spock style so they appear human.

A dwarf can't put on stilts to negate his speed advantage, but a city elf only has to use very simple means to make them look human.

And as being a city elf has little relevance to adventuring in the Dragonbone Wastes, Korcari Wilds or in the Frostbacks, hiding your ears is pretty pointless most of the time anway.

Hellebore

[Banesfinger]

Ninja'ed you on the "Adventurers" thing Hellebore.

[Hellebore]

Ninja'ed you on the "Adventurers" thing Hellebore.

Lol, well that's what happens when you have a penchant for verbiage, someone always says what you were going to say, only faster.


Basically, because characters are adventurers they are already unusual. In a tiny % of the population and as such, are rarely going to be affected by the same problems the rest of the population run into.

Afterall, a Fereldan Freeman warrior won't be out with the hoe sowing seed any more than a city elf will be cowering from the blows of his Cruel Master(TM).

Which of course then makes the background of the character of little importance to the future of the character (unless you want it to of course).

This is, incidently, how I rationalise gender stat equality. Now from a realistic point of view the average woman is smaller and weaker than the average man. However PCs aren't average. So the rationale is that any female adventurer comes from the top end of the female bellcurve where they are as strong as most male adventurers - it's just that you might produce male adventurers from the top 10% of the male bell curve and females only in the top 5%. In the end amongst the adventurer population it just means the women are slightly more extraordinary than the men.

But that's slightly tangental.

Hellebore

[DKH]

I don't think the dwarven speed penalty is a massive disadvantage.

Players normally won't be wearing full plate right from level one, both because of money issues and because they don't have the journeyman armor training talent. By the time they are wearing plate, most warrior characters would have upped their Dex a bit, which evens the playing field somewhat. I think some of the special armor from Set 2 has properties that reduce the movement penalty as well. This would further mitigate the difference. And with the use of some tactics, a dwarf wouldn't need quick movement to be effective in most situations anyway.

Finally, if the difference still bothers you, there's lots of ideas here of how to homebrew a solution, not to mention the obvious quick fix of just removing the speed differences altogether and starting everyone at 10+Dex.

[Eclypse]

And you are overplaying the treatment of city elves in order to try and justify their warriors getting a massive advantage over dwarves in the job they were created for this game: fighting. Loghain is brought down partly because he was complicit in the profiteering of slavery by selling elves to Tevinter. The Landsmeet shoots this down with vehemence. Elves may not in general be better off than humans in Fereldan, but their rights to freedom are protected as evinced explicitly in the computer game.

I'm not justifying their speed bonus. I'm saying that it's not as much of an advantage as you're making it because the world flavor doesn't have them running around in plate armor.

The events surrounding Loghain were very complex, and that was only one of the problems that brought him low. If it were the only evidence I'd concede the point there, but it was just a tack on so they could take him down.

The computer game has elves treated better and worse than others. just as some humans are treated better and worse. Your own elf gets to be the hero of fereldan.

I only see this in reference to two elf characters, 1 your character, (who is a Grey Warden and is not seen as an elf anymore, but as a Warden or Mage if you go that route), and 2 Zevran, but he's Antivan and he even says he was treated like garbage most of his life until he was a Crow, well and even then.

Now the set 2 even says how crafting rules are secondary as that's not what this game is about: it's about adventuring.

In adventuring it doesn't matter that you are playing an elf who is supposedly poor: a fereldan freeman couldn't affort fullplate either. That's what adventuring does, it gets you money you otherwise wouldn't have. That's why many people become adventurers, to get away from the poor life.

In adventuring being a good warrior if you are a warrior is also going to keep you alive. If you want to play a political intrigue game where it's set amongst the Fereldan elite and the elves are thus excluded because they don't come from rich families, then obviously there would be a difference.

And why do these two have to be mutually exclusive? Just because you're an adventurer doesn't mean you get liberties to go hog wild in the world and do whatever you want. The game has flavour for a reason, and if you aren't using that flavor then why not just play D&D instead. The purpose of a Roleplaying game is to experience the world with your character, whether it be dungeon crawling, political intrigue, or a mix and match of all of those.

I'd like to also say, that adventurers aren't immune to biases, prejudice, etc. just because they're adventurers, and sometimes, it's better to have the world flavour there to make the DM's job easier, or to provide plot hooks, etc. I guess if you're coming at this from a purely numbers perspective with no emphasis what-so-ever on the roleplaying part, I can see why you have an issue.

Then there is also the fact that as I said, humans are distrusted by elves, especially the Dalish. So it's ok for the Elves to get a massive advantage in combat to compensate for their poor relationship with humans, but if you decide that your campaign is going to involve alot of Dalish Clans then the humans and dwarves just have to suck?

In a word, yes. While they may not be Tolkien elves to a T, they're based on that template. If they have an inherent racial bonus to speed, its their bonus. So ok, they're better at speed, but if you're a dwarf you're not going to get hit by spells soemtimes...fair trade to me. It's not like an Apostate Mage isn't going to just ream your party if you aren't ready for it either. I mean the disparity of magic to non magic in this game is pretty ridiculous too, but who's advocating for toning down mindblast, or fade shield...

Some stuff in the world isn't fair. The thing is here, elves have a movement advantage on everyone, not just dwarves. And this is really only an issue with warriors wearing the highest protection armor they can get. My advice would be to say, don't min/max the character and make sure your Dwarf warrior starts with decent Dex, to help movement.

A dwarf can't put on stilts to negate his speed advantage, but a city elf only has to use very simple means to make them look human.

And as being a city elf has little relevance to adventuring in the Dragonbone Wastes, Korcari Wilds or in the Frostbacks, hiding your ears is pretty pointless most of the time anway.

Hellebore

City Elf specifically possibly if you find a Dalish camp, they don't particularly like City Elves, or any humans you see, or Qunari. Like I said above, Dwarves may start out disadvantaged some, but putting high stats in their weak areas to shore them up doesn't make the disparity that bad in reality.

[Hellebore]

I'm not justifying their speed bonus. I'm saying that it's not as much of an advantage as you're making it because the world flavor doesn't have them running around in plate armor.

The events surrounding Loghain were very complex, and that was only one of the problems that brought him low. If it were the only evidence I'd concede the point there, but it was just a tack on so they could take him down.

And I'm saying that unless your games are designed around playing a poor city elf, being an ADVENTURER out on ADVENTURES finding treasure and looting corpses, you WILL get plate armour.

And your argument, as I said in a previous post, also applies to fereldan freemen who are not rich in the slightest. As you say, class is important and the freemen are not the rich class.

I only see this in reference to two elf characters, 1 your character, (who is a Grey Warden and is not seen as an elf anymore, but as a Warden or Mage if you go that route), and 2 Zevran, but he's Antivan and he even says he was treated like garbage most of his life until he was a Crow, well and even then.

There are many elves in high positions within noble houses and they aren't treated badly. Off the top of my head the Cousland family has several elves in their service, treated no worse or better than the other humans in those same positions. The teryna's friend has a lady in waiting who is an elf - a position of not so little prestige and it's given to an elf.

And why do these two have to be mutually exclusive? Just because you're an adventurer doesn't mean you get liberties to go hog wild in the world and do whatever you want. The game has flavour for a reason, and if you aren't using that flavor then why not just play D&D instead. The purpose of a Roleplaying game is to experience the world with your character, whether it be dungeon crawling, political intrigue, or a mix and match of all of those.

I'd like to also say, that adventurers aren't immune to biases, prejudice, etc. just because they're adventurers, and sometimes, it's better to have the world flavour there to make the DM's job easier, or to provide plot hooks, etc. I guess if you're coming at this from a purely numbers perspective with no emphasis what-so-ever on the roleplaying part, I can see why you have an issue.

You keep ignoring what I've said in previous posts. Adventuring in general does not happen around the markets where being an elf will draw attention. The whole point of Adventuring (TM) is to venture out from where you live and discover new things. Many of which don't have anyone living in them.

So again, on average, adventuring will not happen around built up cities where prejudice will be much of an issue unless you deliberately make it so.

In a word, yes. While they may not be Tolkien elves to a T, they're based on that template. If they have an inherent racial bonus to speed, its their bonus. So ok, they're better at speed, but if you're a dwarf you're not going to get hit by spells soemtimes...fair trade to me. It's not like an Apostate Mage isn't going to just ream your party if you aren't ready for it either. I mean the disparity of magic to non magic in this game is pretty ridiculous too, but who's advocating for toning down mindblast, or fade shield...

Huh? the Surface Dwarf has no bonus to spell resistance at all. It literally has no advantage over either elf, they all receive 1 pt to 1 attribute a set number of talents/focuese and then are given different speed values independent of that.

Some stuff in the world isn't fair. The thing is here, elves have a movement advantage on everyone, not just dwarves. And this is really only an issue with warriors wearing the highest protection armor they can get. My advice would be to say, don't min/max the character and make sure your Dwarf warrior starts with decent Dex, to help movement.

The game does not specify that playing a dwarven warrior is worse than playing an elve warrior. It is touted as 'newbie' friendly. If it was unfair deliberately then it would or should be telling players up front.

Again, in a previous post I described just how false your argument is.

Min/max? No, what the rules are saying is that you can't 'min/max' (by your definition) with a dwarf as you are punished heavily for it, but you CAN 'min/max' as an elf because you AREN'T punished for it. So again, double standards. Your point only applies to dwarves.

As for the dex, I have categorically shot that down previously:

And what happens if the Dwarf stacks his Dex? Dex is a Primary attribute for warriors. By level 6 he will have gained +3 Dex if he stacks it all there. The elves meanwhile can put it anywhere.

So what do we end up with? The dwarf now, at level SIX has a Speed of 6, whilst the elves STILL have Speed7/8 without putting ANY points in Dex. They could have put one point in Con (to equal the dwarf's starting Con bonus) and then gained +2 to Str.

So what's better?

A Speed 6 warrior with Con 1 and str0 or
A Speed 7/8 warrior with Con 1 and Str2?

Two equal warriors, one a dwarf and the other an elf. The 4 or 5 pts of dex the dwarf has to accrue to get a speed equal to the elf will take 8-10 levels to accomplish, whilst the elf has put them in con and str to become a superior fighter.

The dwarf needs to boost Dex to actually get a decent move, so he is penalised in str and con.

So no, it's not as simple as just putting points in dex. A character should not be at a disadvantage to its MAIN PURPOSE in the game for TEN LEVELS. Nor should they be worse off in general simply by being forced to do that.

You either aren't reading what I post or are ignoring it A charge 1 or 2 yards is useless. An elf with a charge or 4 or more yards is not.

Giving the dwarves an 8 starting speed is tantamount to giving them a massive Dex penalty at character creation. Nothing else in the game boosts speed except Dex, so the character has to waste primary attribute upgrades just to get their speed to a useful level and not even to as high as the elf STARTS THE GAME WITH.

City Elf specifically possibly if you find a Dalish camp, they don't particularly like City Elves, or any humans you see, or Qunari. Like I said above, Dwarves may start out disadvantaged some, but putting high stats in their weak areas to shore them up doesn't make the disparity that bad in reality.

No, that is a fabrication created to try and justify your position. I will reiterate:

So what's better?

A level 6 warrior:
A Speed 6 warrior with Con 1 and str0 or
A Speed 7/8 warrior with Con 1 and Str2?

In case you didn't get it the first time:


So what's better?

A level 6 warrior:
A Speed 6 warrior with Con 1 and str0 or
A Speed 7/8 warrior with Con 1 and Str2?


On the previous page in another post I made.


It's not as simple as just putting more points in Dex at all. That is a fallacy.

EDIT:
If you would like more variations:

Dwarf with 0 in starting stats wearing fullplate after 6 ranks

Speed 3 Dex 0 Con 4 Str 0
Speed 4 Dex 1 Con 3 Str 0
Speed 5 Dex 2 Con 2 Str 0
Speed 6 Dex 3 Con 1 Str 0

Speed 3 Dex 0 Con 1 Str 3
Speed 3 Dex 0 Con 2 Str 2
Speed 3 Dex 0 Con 3 Str 1

Dalish with 0 in starting stats wearing fullplate after 6 ranks

Speed 7 Dex 0 Con 3 Str 0
Speed 8 Dex 1 Con 2 Str 0
Speed 9 Dex 2 Con 1 Str 0
Speed 10 Dex 3 Con 0 Str 0

Speed 7 Dex 0 Con 0 Str 3
Speed 7 Dex 0 Con 1 Str 2
Speed 7 Dex 0 Con 2 Str 1


Two equal starting warriors, with their 3 primary attribute points spread across their stats. What was that about it just being a case of 'putting more points in dex'?

What about if they only wear heavy mail with its -3?

The dwarf is move 5 and the elf is move 9. Almost TWO TIMES as fast. The elf has a Charge range of 4 yards, almost the distance the dwarf can move normally. The Dwarf has a charge range of 2 yards, twice as fast as being in fullplate, but still only 2 yards.

ANY armour penalty disproportionately affects the dwarf over the elf because the elf receives 4 extra speed (only replaceable with 4 points in dex or EIGHT levels for a warrior) at character creation and the dwarf has such a low starting speed. -1 to speed 8 is ~12% of the total speed value. -1 to 12 is ~8% of the total speed value.

It's all well and good to make throw away statements like 'just put more points in Dex' but the TRUTH is very different.










Hellebore

[Loswaith]

@ Helebore
The Comparison you are doing is rather skewed your coamparing the top and botom of the averages, of course there will be a huge disparity if you do that.
Also its not worth adding the dex for elves when you make the assumption that they have all 0 stats after racial modifiers.

If you were arguing the issues of Dwarves vs Humans or even Elves vs Humans (as they are closer to the same) then you may sell your point better. Prehaps the inherrant flaws in the static penalities on armour could be better to focus on using similare example you have to justify it.

@ General
There is also a huge disparity between size and build of dwarves and elves.
Someone 4 feet tall and stocky is going to be significantly slower than someone thats lithe and 5.5 feet tall. One can only assume that elves have longer legs than humans do proportunatly to their size.

Speed is only what a character can do in a round both races are able to travel the same distance it just takes the dwarf longer to travel that distance. A warrior isnt limied to only moving their movement rate, the limit is their movement rate each round. So the dwarf warrior may need to use their minor action for movement to reach the opponent in that round while the elf warrior doesnt. The elf is likely doing nothing with that minor action anyway.

The issue itself isnt with Dwarves and Elves, the issue you are (in general sence not specifically to one person) having is the way armour effects the movement rules, as only when it comes to heavy armour do people seem to take the bigest issue.

Armour affects in a flat rate, rather than a percentage effect.
Full plate reduces speed for each race differently, as shown below:
Elf: 41.67%
Human: 50.00%
Dwarf: 62.50%
Flat rate is a simpler rule however than having percentages.
If you want a simple solution make elves 10 movement same as humans and you no longer have that 4 yard disparity between dwarves and elves.

Given the rules as well there is always the possiblity of having 3 Dex starting on the dwarf and -1 on the elf, making their movements the same and the poor Human slower than both.