Green Ronin Publishing

Hi,

So is anyone interested in helping with a True System Reference Document? This would be human-readable files (probably HTML) of the OGL system content, parallel to what Wizards of the Coast has of their SRD (cf. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 )

Green Ronin -- any opinions on this? Obviously it wouldn't have any of the product identity and couldn't use the trademarked logo. But other than that, opinions?

I'm sure they don't want it out there as True20 is 99% open content (minus the coverart, name and first few pages of legalese) I havn't seen any PI anywere within the book yet. Maybe in the GM advice section or something.

It would conflict with their sales and it could count as one of the two publishings towards entering the contest

It's legal though. I'd personally model it off the d20srd site. I GM from my laptop and use it greatly. I'm going to pay the $15 yearly contribution and they'll send me all of the source files and I'll compile it into a .chm

I'm a fan of seeing an SRD of every d20/OGL product up on the net in the vein of the d20srd site. Like an SRD Emporium. Not nessicarily with downloads, but a fully linked SRD to view online.

Actually, it's not exactly legal. While you can re-use open content within the parameter of the OGL (and it's unclear whether what you're proposing does), you cannot reference the names True20, Blue Rose, Green Ronin, etc. without GR's permission because these are copyrighted and trademarked terms. I'm not even sure how you would market such a thing?

Yes, True20, Blue Rose, Green Ronin, the art and specific setting material is not open.

That is why I said:



and not





Using the Open Content within the paramaters of the Open Gaming Liscense is legal.

If we wanted there to be a True20 SRD, we would do one ourselves. Also, a third party doing one would probably defeat the purpose, since you couldn't actually call it the True20 SRD, as that's our Trademark and you couldn't use it without our permission.

OK, so you don't want it. (Perhaps that should have been obvious to me, but there are companies like Wizards of the Coast and Guardians of Order who make their System Reference Documents available for download.)

I don't think the trademark is that much of an issue. I mean, you used portions of the original SRD in Blue Rose and True20 without using the D20 logo -- presumably without getting Wizards of the Coast's permission. Others have done similarly (Mongoose released Conan OGL without the D20 logo, for example).

Keeping in mind that you benefited from the openness of the SRD itself, is there a moderate position where you wouldn't mind having some of the material released? I think it's good open-source to pass on from what benefits you. That is, I don't want solely to piss you off, but I'm not happy with keeping all of the open content closed.

LOL

Not Soley? So pissing Green Ronin off is only part of the thrill, eh?

It's not closed. There is open content in the book and you can post it online with an OGL liscense attached to it - or into your own book such as Mongoose has done.

By not putting out a SRD they're just trying to make it harder for others to share on their open content. Either you purchase a PDF and copy&paste&format or you buy the physical book and type it by hand.

Even GoO only has an SRD for BESM d20 and d20 Mecha. They have open content in all their d20 books, but not all of them have SRDs. Though they are willing to work something out to get you the Open Content to a book under certain circumstances, but thats usually when you liscense it through their Magnum Opus program.

So you can do the same thing that Mongoose did if you wanted and post it online and label it "Truest d20" or "Only the 20" or something else... Mongoose called theirs Pocket Players Handbook.

But that would defeat it's purpose as a True20 SRD because people won't be able to tell it's the SRD for True20.

SRD != Open Content.

SRD = easy access to Open Content.

Yes, they did and that was their choice. Their fans did not make the decision for them.



None of which has anything to do with the issue here. We own the True20 Trademark and logo. No one can use either of those things without our permission. People can use the OGL to borrow or build off what we've done in the normal way, but they cannot indicate compatibility with True20 without our permission. That's how the OGL and Trademark law work.



We have already released the material under the OGL and nearly all of True20 is open content. This is no different than 99.999% of the releases in the history of the OGL. The only third party company that has ever released an SRD is Guardians of Order and again, that was their choice to make. And as I said, we don't want a SRD for True20.



It's not closed, it's just not free. If you are telling me that me that I'm morally obligated to give away our hard work for free on the internet, I'm going to have to disagree. The OGL provides a way for anyone who wants to access our material. What is doesn't allow them to do is use our Trademarks or logos.

We've been dealing the OGL for longer than anyone and we know the ups, downs, ins, and outs. We have created something in True20 that has a lot of potential and we're going to develop that in the way we deem best. We do not believe that a SRD or a free license to everyone to use our Trademarks would be in our best interest right now.

We are running a business here and all we're trying to do is benefit from our own hard work. We hope people can respect that.

Hold on. I'm not asking any work on your part. Nor am I asking about what the legal issues are -- I am well aware of them as well. Legally, you already did give away a certain amount of your hard work by declaring it open content. That means that other people may in principle publish or post it.

I am asking what you want of me, as an OGL user. Legally, I could post the whole of the open content stripped of logos and trademarks -- but on reflection I'm not going to do that out of respect for you. But I would like to do at least something with the open content. I'm asking for guidelines over and above what is legal in order for me to be nice to you.

Hiya John Kim
I am not trying to come across as hostile but I can't see any benefit for the True20 community in releasing the rules as a free document. If you can list some of the benefits it might make more sense. Unless and until you can elucidate a compelling and sensible argument for doing so, I can only see this as detrimental to people like me who really want to see this game succeed.
It seems to me that the definintion of a System Reference Document is to provide the core rule set of a system without the art and flavour text or campaign specific material that can get in the way of a Narrator searching for a specific rule. This is already what True20 is. The True20 rules are the SRD for any campaign book that uses True20. Although it is an evolved version, you could say that True20 is the SRD for Blue Rose. The D20 SRD phenomenon and its great success does not necessarily translate into the True20 environment. By using the D20 SRD a DM has an electronic resource that he can use instead of pawing endlessly through his manuals and shortening their playing life. But True20 is already an electronic product. Then there is the other use of the SRD as the rules `bible' for other developers to have an exact print of the rules they may use in making their own products. This is irrelevent for True20 because Green Ronin have other plans regarding how to license the system for other developers.
The only result that I can see from making a trade-mark-less version of the True20 rules and distributing it freely is that you reduce the cost-return that Green Ronin receives for their investment in the game. So this then reduces the profitibility of the system over time and slows or ceases the availability of new products.
We are talking about a $12 investment for the Narrator here for ownership of the entire rules system. I have written in a couple of other threads that a product survives because it is financially supported by its target audience. Great ideas and innovative mechanics don't move units, customers move units, the great ideas and cool mechanics attract the customers.
A freely released version of True20 inhibits the future of the product and the future of its support. But, then again, maybe I've got it all wrong. So John Kim, please point out my mistakes and show how your proposition will improve the current and future utility of the True20 system.

Matterhorn.